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Author Topic: Monitor nerf  (Read 2379 times)

SafariJohn

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Re: Monitor nerf
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2023, 04:23:49 PM »

I think it is both. Instead of being a brick that blocks lines of fire it is either a silly distraction that can draw a cruiser or more away for the entire fight or a magic wrecking ball that can destroy a Paragon by bumping into it repeatedly.
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kenwth81

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Re: Monitor nerf
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2023, 10:43:29 PM »

I think it is both. Instead of being a brick that blocks lines of fire it is either a silly distraction that can draw a cruiser or more away for the entire fight or a magic wrecking ball that can destroy a Paragon by bumping into it repeatedly.

The problem is people using cheese tactic. The player can cheese the game. This isn't even a good cheese nor a fast cheese to win.

In a normal game, the player can focus fire on the monitor and the monitor will blow up. Oh wow, why doesn't it work on the player? Oh ya I am not stupid.

In most case, the player will ignore the monitor since taking care of larger ships that are more dangerous is more important. OH *** it is the immortal ridiculous overpowered monitor, and it is coming right for us.
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Sandor057

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Re: Monitor nerf
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2023, 03:35:35 AM »

The problem isn't with the AI having monitors, the problem is the player driving a monitor and shoving it directly into the face of the nearest capital ship. Or ideally, multiple. Something has to give because a monitor should NOT be able to sit in a dorito's face and tank it indefinitely. Changing the AI does not change the fact that a dorito cannot kill a monitor. Changing the AI doesn't change the fact that the monitor has so much PPT that it can outlast nearly every ship in the battle and drain their CR to death at no danger to itself.

The point would precisely be changing the AI to ignore the Monitor as it is incapable to do pose any danger. At most you kit it out with dual Reapers and waste a Missile spec officer on it, even so it's a one-trick pony. Gutting a ship does not solve the AI's shortcomings in recognising threat.
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basileus

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Re: Monitor nerf
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2023, 06:45:38 AM »

I had considered replacing the default AI with a machine learning model, with officers getting smarter as they leveled up.  However, the API doesn't appear to support this.  The game is so complex that I'm skeptical anything other than machine learning will ever get it behaving intelligently.
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Sorrydough

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Re: Monitor nerf
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2023, 11:51:19 AM »

The problem isn't with the AI having monitors, the problem is the player driving a monitor and shoving it directly into the face of the nearest capital ship. Or ideally, multiple. Something has to give because a monitor should NOT be able to sit in a dorito's face and tank it indefinitely. Changing the AI does not change the fact that a dorito cannot kill a monitor. Changing the AI doesn't change the fact that the monitor has so much PPT that it can outlast nearly every ship in the battle and drain their CR to death at no danger to itself.

The point would precisely be changing the AI to ignore the Monitor as it is incapable to do pose any danger. At most you kit it out with dual Reapers and waste a Missile spec officer on it, even so it's a one-trick pony. Gutting a ship does not solve the AI's shortcomings in recognising threat.

Good job ignoring that A DORITO CANNOT KILL A MONITOR AND THAT IS THE PROBLEM.
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Sandor057

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Re: Monitor nerf
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2023, 04:03:20 PM »

The problem isn't with the AI having monitors, the problem is the player driving a monitor and shoving it directly into the face of the nearest capital ship. Or ideally, multiple. Something has to give because a monitor should NOT be able to sit in a dorito's face and tank it indefinitely. Changing the AI does not change the fact that a dorito cannot kill a monitor. Changing the AI doesn't change the fact that the monitor has so much PPT that it can outlast nearly every ship in the battle and drain their CR to death at no danger to itself.

The point would precisely be changing the AI to ignore the Monitor as it is incapable to do pose any danger. At most you kit it out with dual Reapers and waste a Missile spec officer on it, even so it's a one-trick pony. Gutting a ship does not solve the AI's shortcomings in recognising threat.

Good job ignoring that A DORITO CANNOT KILL A MONITOR AND THAT IS THE PROBLEM.

With the Monitor being on its own, while fun, at max about 3 minutes of stalemate will end in a very dead Monitor.
If the issue is the Dorito focusing the Monitor (as it's the closest ship) while something else shoots it from afar without any retaliation, then see the part about the AI not being able to recognise (the lack of) threat being the problem.
Not being able to be killed is the one thing the Monitor does. Just don't let it near a Harbringer.

I had considered replacing the default AI with a machine learning model, with officers getting smarter as they leveled up.  However, the API doesn't appear to support this.  The game is so complex that I'm skeptical anything other than machine learning will ever get it behaving intelligently.

If so that's a damn shame. I find the Monitor to have a quite interesting niche. It would be nice if it took more effort to use, as in actively get in the way of incoming fire instead of getting targeted due to simply being the closest to the enemy. I would think a modified avoid command should be sufficient on the AI's part to greatly diminish its use though.
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PsychoThruster

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Re: Monitor nerf
« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2023, 06:44:31 PM »

I don't want to see the ship nerfed so much as changed into something else. I think turning into a mobile shield emitter that can project a shield would be very interesting. Give it some respectable range and it can cover allies or put a barrier right in front of the enemy to absorb fire. Or give it a unique flight deck and make it the defensive version of the tempest with drones that can dissipate hard flux on allies. It also needs a new sprite imo.
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Zuthal

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Re: Monitor nerf
« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2023, 05:12:42 AM »

With the Monitor being on its own, while fun, at max about 3 minutes of stalemate will end in a very dead Monitor.

With full skill investment and hardened subsystems, an SO Monitor gets over four minutes (267 seconds) of PPT. Additionally, with Hardened Subsystems and elite Combat Endurance, CR degrade at half the usual rate, so at one point every eight seconds, which means that from 100% CR, it will take eight minutes to degrade to the point of risking malfunctions.

And honestly, the S-mod bonuses have made the Monitor even stronger this patch I think. With Flux Distributor built-in, the thing can get to 584 flux dissipation, which after all skill effects etc are accounted for means it can absorb 5700 anti-shield DPS
« Last Edit: May 08, 2023, 05:44:21 AM by Zuthal »
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Tigasboss

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Re: Monitor nerf
« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2023, 01:27:31 PM »

Ah, the same old. Gut it with a machate, eh?
The thing is, as it's built, the Monitor's infamy comes from the AI not being able to recognize it's not able to be a threat. Remove SO and you're just a bit too short to do anything besides absorbing Squall salvos. If anything, an AI redesign would be in order for how hostile Monitors are handled.

The problem isn't with the AI having monitors, the problem is the player driving a monitor and shoving it directly into the face of the nearest capital ship. Or ideally, multiple. Something has to give because a monitor should NOT be able to sit in a dorito's face and tank it indefinitely. Changing the AI does not change the fact that a dorito cannot kill a monitor. Changing the AI doesn't change the fact that the monitor has so much PPT that it can outlast nearly every ship in the battle and drain their CR to death at no danger to itself.
So the problem is some players, in a single player game, on their own computer, use a monitor in a very boring way and you personally don't like that they use it that way?
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Velox

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Re: Monitor nerf
« Reply #24 on: May 11, 2023, 08:13:18 PM »

Ah, the same old. Gut it with a machate, eh?
The thing is, as it's built, the Monitor's infamy comes from the AI not being able to recognize it's not able to be a threat. Remove SO and you're just a bit too short to do anything besides absorbing Squall salvos. If anything, an AI redesign would be in order for how hostile Monitors are handled.

The problem isn't with the AI having monitors, the problem is the player driving a monitor and shoving it directly into the face of the nearest capital ship. Or ideally, multiple. Something has to give because a monitor should NOT be able to sit in a dorito's face and tank it indefinitely. Changing the AI does not change the fact that a dorito cannot kill a monitor. Changing the AI doesn't change the fact that the monitor has so much PPT that it can outlast nearly every ship in the battle and drain their CR to death at no danger to itself.
So the problem is some players, in a single player game, on their own computer, use a monitor in a very boring way and you personally don't like that they use it that way?

Isn't it more that by having something wildly out of balance, you make it so that players don't have other valid choices without intentionally gimping themselves?  It seems strange to argue against properly balancing the game.
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BaBosa

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Re: Monitor nerf
« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2023, 09:07:59 PM »

Ah, the same old. Gut it with a machate, eh?
The thing is, as it's built, the Monitor's infamy comes from the AI not being able to recognize it's not able to be a threat. Remove SO and you're just a bit too short to do anything besides absorbing Squall salvos. If anything, an AI redesign would be in order for how hostile Monitors are handled.

The problem isn't with the AI having monitors, the problem is the player driving a monitor and shoving it directly into the face of the nearest capital ship. Or ideally, multiple. Something has to give because a monitor should NOT be able to sit in a dorito's face and tank it indefinitely. Changing the AI does not change the fact that a dorito cannot kill a monitor. Changing the AI doesn't change the fact that the monitor has so much PPT that it can outlast nearly every ship in the battle and drain their CR to death at no danger to itself.
So the problem is some players, in a single player game, on their own computer, use a monitor in a very boring way and you personally don't like that they use it that way?
Isn't it more that by having something wildly out of balance, you make it so that players don't have other valid choices without intentionally gimping themselves?  It seems strange to argue against properly balancing the game.
A big difference is that Starsector doesn't really have a clear progression and it is harder to evaluate the optimalness of a set up and monitor cheese is so much more boring to do. Players want to have fun and while monitors can cheese things, it's not super clear that they can especially with the AI being inconsistent and it does need a specific set up. While we forum users know about it, the average player probably won't notice and if they do, it takes a bit of work to figure out so it can be seen as a challenge and the cheese is the reward. And it's not huge cheese as well because the monitors can't kill ships, just distract them so the rest of the fleet still needs to be able to kill every ship so it is not like an OP killer ship that can solo everything by itself.
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