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Author Topic: Logistics is 90% of Combat  (Read 2465 times)

Void Ganymede

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Re: Logistics is 90% of Combat
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2023, 09:07:50 PM »

I want to play Starsector like an arcade-like shmup.
For flagships like that I like bringing a flashy support fleet. Salamander spam, dedicated carrier escorts, LRM spam, big MRM alpha strikes, independent escorts to hammer-anvil with... Anything where you can punch a hole with your flagship and immediately get support from whatever's behind you.

Some of those work great with clunkers. D-mods don't affect Pilums/Harpoons. Support Doctrine + Derelict Contingent = ridiculous amount of missile welcome wagons. You don't even need to pre-deploy them, just bait the enemy close to the spawn and warp stuff in in MRM range.

The big problem is getting your hands on enough identical outfitted ships. It's possible to get a no-nanoforge Heavy Industry building in <3 months game time, but ~600k is a lot of up-front investment.

Good point on the flagship making Support Doctrine less efficient! It's definitely a choice of wide-vs-tall fleet. Some ships benefit from SD skills a lot, others don't. It's also incompatible with popular Wolfpacks early on, but is probably the best complement to a dedicated Wolfpack late.

Neural Link is really weird. It's a big commitment but enables some interesting endgame setups.
  • Shade-Afflictor Tagteam: the usual anti-matter blaster setups. EMP fighters off your Afflictor, Amplify damage for your Shade, reset cooldown on either when you need to. While blasters are cooling you're already in the other ship aiming shots. Very active and arcade-y.
  • 2 Dooms. Boring and you'll want cursed D-mod builds for instant swaps, but it would give absolute max mine abuse.
  • 2x Artillery Eradicators: use IPDAI for max range smalls, and ship system resets for near-100% AAF uptime. It's a little awkward to control but an absolutely ridiculous amount of firepower. The mounts mean your armor/hull cracking is weak for a flagship, so you'll need bomber/LRM support. Also extremely slow so bring Salamanders and Claws.
  • Fast Missile Racks gimmick: two Ventures could absolutely saturate the field with Pilums then swap to the actual flagship and retreat. Silly but funny.
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Vanshilar

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Re: Logistics is 90% of Combat
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2023, 08:58:40 AM »

I feel like once I have a fleet up and running, the game is already over.  The game play is most interesting when working within the logistics constraints to fight the best I could with what I could find and afford.

I feel like the opposite. To me, the early- to mid-game is filled with a bunch of tedium, basically exploring and opening Skinner's boxes looking for loot, running fetch quests, gradually getting more ships, etc. To me it's a bunch of busywork before I get to the "fun" part. It's gotten so boring that my first actual playthrough in 0.96a (as opposed to using console commands to test fleets) once the hotfixes are over is going to be to stick a colony in the most difficult faction system I can (I'm not sure yet if that would be Aztlan for Hegemony or Askonia for Sindrian) as early as possible and see if I can build up a fleet and everything despite having to defend the colony against saturation bombardments from the very beginning. There's just no challenge to developing my fleet from the start to an endgame fleet. Hence the remaining question is what endgame fleet to work toward, and hence testing out different endgame fleets.

There's a certain amount of interest in "hey I'm used to relying on this weapon or this hullmod but I don't have it yet so how can I make do and still kill fleets without what I'm used to" in the early- to mid-game, but I don't consider that particularly fun. As an analogy, I'm not particularly interested in "how do I drive if I can't use my left hand or if I can't use my right foot" -- i.e. when under an artificial limitation -- and more interested in "what's a better way to drive assuming all my limbs are intact". Different players have different interests in the game though so it's perfectly legitimate, just not something that I personally am interested in.

I truly believe ship and fleet concepts should be viable and tested in the early and mid-game, and that balance and interesting game decisions are much more important at those stages than late game, simply because the majority of players are going to spend the majority of play at the early and mid-game.

No, because the early- and mid-game won't have the full spectrum of challenges available in the game, pretty much by definition. It's the endgame where the player encounters the full suite of possible challenging enemies, and where the sunk cost is higher and the cost of rebuilding the fleet back to where it was is higher (i.e. the fights are less forgiving). So there are plenty of strategies that are viable in the early- to mid-game that don't work in the endgame, since the game is still essentially hand-holding the player through learning the different intricacies of combat mechanics. Thus centering the testing around the early- to mid-game is going to lead to bad recommendations on fleet setup when the player gets to the endgame.

An easy example of this is Safety Overrides. The early- to mid-game is filled with relatively docile and forgiving enemies, so it's easy to just put SO on everything and steamroll through pirate fleets. Thus testing against early- to mid-game fleets will likely result in "use SO". But that is pretty bad advice when it comes to the endgame, when the enemies are much more vicious and when diving headfirst into a fleet means almost certain death. So the player who looks at testing based on the early- to mid-game -- where the results will most likely say "use SO" -- will be in for a rude awakening when he gets to the endgame. Then all the effort put into developing their fleet around SO basically goes to waste.

As an aside, that's why I don't feel like SO needs much of a change -- its power naturally fades as the player encounters harder content. I've noticed that most of the discussion claiming SO is too strong basically centers around a few specific ships -- Hyperion, Monitor, LP Brawler -- or around a player-controlled SO ship, since a human player is much better at maneuvering and managing flux than the AI, so of course a human player can make much better use of SO; or demonstrates it in the sim or against weaker enemies (i.e. "stick SO on ship X and look you can kill ship Y in sim easily"). I've yet to see someone actually show that SO is stronger than non-SO against endgame fleets, say double Ordos, outside of these cases. That's because the opposite is true; a non-SO Eradicator fleet will do much better against double Ordos than an SO Eradicator fleet, for example. So SO naturally becomes a non-factor at the endgame, so I don't see it as needing a change, despite the constant forum complaints about it from certain posters.

I'm pretty sure Alex does playtesting at different points in the game, from the tutorial all the way to the end.  Which is probably why the more he adds to the game, the longer it takes to test each time.

Sure, but I would expect it to be more along the lines of "is the player gaining hullmods at a good enough rate" or "is it too easy/hard for the player to get desired ships" not "does this particular fleet setup or that particular fleet setup work well enough" the way that I'm looking at fleet strategies for the endgame.

As for capstones, the only ones that look like primary material are Systems Expertise in Combat (for some ships only), Support Doctrine in Leadership (but needs Leadership 8 if taking BotB too), Automated Ships in Tech, and Derelict Operations in Industry.  Those have a certain... plan in mind.  Otherwise, it looks like I should get BotB for its own sake (I guess what you call "primary capstone") and some of the vital lower tier Leadership along the way to BotB.

Eh actually I think pretty much most of them have a certain "plan in mind":

* Systems Expertise if your flagship has a system that you want to spam, otherwise it's likely (close to) useless.
* Missile Specialization if your flagship is missile-heavy, otherwise it's likely (close to) useless.
* Support Doctrine if your fleet has a significant amount of non-officered ships, otherwise it's likely (close to) useless.
* Neural Link if you're planning on running two flagships or switching to another flagship for whatever reason, otherwise it's likely (close to) useless. You might take it if you want a second ship to get your combat skills if you went combat-heavy I guess even if you don't switch.
* Automated Ships if you're planning on using Remnant ships or Derelict ships, otherwise it's useless.
* Don't know about Hull Restoration because I don't use it, but from the looks of it it's for the early game when the player might want an alternate way to remove d-mods without spending money or something. But also likely (close to) useless if your fleet doesn't have trouble with dying.
* Derelict Operations if your fleet has d-mods, otherwise it's useless.

Basically all the capstones except BotB push the fleet composition in a particular direction. BotB is the only one that's generally beneficial regardless of what fleet you have. And hence unless the player is trying to build the fleet in multiple directions and end up with not enough skill points, the player will generally take BotB. That's why it's so commonly used.
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NotSoLoneWolf

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Re: Logistics is 90% of Combat
« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2023, 10:41:47 AM »

In short low tech rules high tech drools Chicomoztoc Metrocomplex for life.

… but isn’t low-tech more logistically intensive than high-tech? I remember tests were done on this during 0.95, revealing that due to higher crew counts and worse fuel consumption, it ends up that in almost every case, low-tech ships cost more to run than their high-tech equivalents. The Onslaught was like 150% the cost of the Paragon IIRC. (Which if you’re asking me is complete insanity to the point of ruining my immersion and goes against Alex’s stated goal of making low-tech a sidegrade to high-tech, not a downgrade)
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Igncom1

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Re: Logistics is 90% of Combat
« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2023, 11:25:32 AM »

Men and supplies are cheap. IP locked hightech automated systems are not.
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strcat

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Re: Logistics is 90% of Combat
« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2023, 02:01:13 PM »

An easy example of this is Safety Overrides. The early- to mid-game is filled with relatively docile and forgiving enemies, so it's easy to just put SO on everything and steamroll through pirate fleets. Thus testing against early- to mid-game fleets will likely result in "use SO". But that is pretty bad advice when it comes to the endgame, when the enemies are much more vicious and when diving headfirst into a fleet means almost certain death. So the player who looks at testing based on the early- to mid-game -- where the results will most likely say "use SO" -- will be in for a rude awakening when he gets to the endgame. Then all the effort put into developing their fleet around SO basically goes to waste.

As an aside, that's why I don't feel like SO needs much of a change -- its power naturally fades as the player encounters harder content. I've noticed that most of the discussion claiming SO is too strong basically centers around a few specific ships -- Hyperion, Monitor, LP Brawler -- or around a player-controlled SO ship, since a human player is much better at maneuvering and managing flux than the AI, so of course a human player can make much better use of SO; or demonstrates it in the sim or against weaker enemies (i.e. "stick SO on ship X and look you can kill ship Y in sim easily"). I've yet to see someone actually show that SO is stronger than non-SO against endgame fleets, say double Ordos, outside of these cases. That's because the opposite is true; a non-SO Eradicator fleet will do much better against double Ordos than an SO Eradicator fleet, for example. So SO naturally becomes a non-factor at the endgame, so I don't see it as needing a change, despite the constant forum complaints about it from certain posters.

Safety Overrides is extremely powerful late game. Eradicator isn't fast enough despite the high base speed and is too focused on armor for safe active venting when SO goes best with a strong 360 front shield. You also save significant OP from not needing PD. Assault Chaingun also isn't very good against high armor and also it's nice to have an all purpose weapon (Heavy Blaster) when you have the flux to support the inefficiency. Small and medium ballistics are usually much nicer than energy slots, but small energy slots are great for close range and medium energy are fantastic for SO.

I don't normally use SO beyond the early game because it's boring and trivializes the content rather than because the power fades. I do agree that an SO flagship fades in relevance. The battles get too long for an SO flagship with a non-SO fleet, and it becomes difficult to safely approach if you're flying the only SO ship. There's also the Odyssey with 2x Plasma Cannon / 3x Sabot SRM Pod and Systems Expertise which plays a very similar role to an SO flagship with full capital tier PPT. Regardless, using SO for the entire fleet gets extremely strong once you get the proper ship for it: the Aurora. It was strong in 0.95.1a and it's substantially stronger in 0.96.

Elite Energy Weapon Mastery
Elite Field Modulation
(Elite) Ordnance Expertise
(Elite) Helmsmanship
Combat Endurance
Target Analysis

2x Heavy Blaster (3 work for anti-armor focus if not using all weapon slots)
1x Pulse Laser
7x IR Pulse Laser (replace front turret with emotional support PD for AI and can drop more for more capacitors)

7x Capacitors
35x Vents

Built-in Hardened Shields
Built-in Hardened Subsystems
Built-in Shield Conversion - Front
Safety Overrides
Solar Shielding

This ship ends up with 0.35 shield efficiency which is even better against Remnants due to Solar Shielding, giving it a ridiculously strong shield from the high flux capacity. Weapon/shield flux is more than covered by flux dissipation thanks to Ordnance Expertise (2736 dissipation) and Elite Energy Weapon Mastery. You can deal with any content in the game with a pure fleet of these with hardly any risk of a loss, or you can use them alongside aggressive Radiant builds. Odyssey works fine as a player flagship alongside them which is nice since flying one of these is very boring.

I usually go with Eradicators, Champions, Conquests, Onslaughts, etc. but now and then it's fun to play with an overpowered aggressive close range fleet. 0.96 has significantly buffed it. The problem is not the Aurora, which is a balanced ship without SO. SO Fury is quite strong too, although with much higher risk of AI losses largely due to the ship system. SO Eagle is also substantially better now thanks to the Eagle buffs (better flux stats and 10 speed are huge). Both SO Eagle and Brawler LP can also now get a full 360 shield via built-in Extended Shields (filling the role of the shield conversion for the Aurora).
« Last Edit: May 15, 2023, 03:07:30 PM by strcat »
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eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef

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Re: Logistics is 90% of Combat
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2023, 03:39:14 PM »

An easy example of this is Safety Overrides. The early- to mid-game is filled with relatively docile and forgiving enemies, so it's easy to just put SO on everything and steamroll through pirate fleets. Thus testing against early- to mid-game fleets will likely result in "use SO". But that is pretty bad advice when it comes to the endgame, when the enemies are much more vicious and when diving headfirst into a fleet means almost certain death. So the player who looks at testing based on the early- to mid-game -- where the results will most likely say "use SO" -- will be in for a rude awakening when he gets to the endgame. Then all the effort put into developing their fleet around SO basically goes to waste.

As an aside, that's why I don't feel like SO needs much of a change -- its power naturally fades as the player encounters harder content. I've noticed that most of the discussion claiming SO is too strong basically centers around a few specific ships -- Hyperion, Monitor, LP Brawler -- or around a player-controlled SO ship, since a human player is much better at maneuvering and managing flux than the AI, so of course a human player can make much better use of SO; or demonstrates it in the sim or against weaker enemies (i.e. "stick SO on ship X and look you can kill ship Y in sim easily"). I've yet to see someone actually show that SO is stronger than non-SO against endgame fleets, say double Ordos, outside of these cases. That's because the opposite is true; a non-SO Eradicator fleet will do much better against double Ordos than an SO Eradicator fleet, for example. So SO naturally becomes a non-factor at the endgame, so I don't see it as needing a change, despite the constant forum complaints about it from certain posters.

Safety Overrides is extremely powerful late game. Eradicator isn't fast enough despite the high base speed and is too focused on armor for safe active venting when SO goes best with a strong 360 front shield. You also save significant OP from not needing PD. Assault Chaingun also isn't very good against high armor and also it's nice to have an all purpose weapon (Heavy Blaster) when you have the flux to support the inefficiency. Small and medium ballistics are usually much nicer than energy slots, but small energy slots are great for close range and medium energy are fantastic for SO.

I don't normally use SO beyond the early game because it's boring and trivializes the content rather than because the power fades. I do agree that an SO flagship fades in relevance. The battles get too long for an SO flagship with a non-SO fleet, and it becomes difficult to safely approach if you're flying the only SO ship. There's also the Odyssey with 2x Plasma Cannon / 3x Sabot SRM Pod and Systems Expertise which plays a very similar role to an SO flagship with full capital tier PPT. Regardless, using SO for the entire fleet gets extremely strong once you get the proper ship for it: the Aurora. It was strong in 0.95.1a and it's substantially stronger in 0.96.

Elite Energy Weapon Mastery
Elite Field Modulation
(Elite) Ordnance Expertise
(Elite) Helmsmanship
Combat Endurance
Target Analysis

2x Heavy Blaster (3 work for anti-armor focus if not using all weapon slots)
1x Pulse Laser
7x IR Pulse Laser (replace front turret with emotional support PD for AI and can drop more for more capacitors)

7x Capacitors
35x Vents

Built-in Hardened Shields
Built-in Hardened Subsystems
Built-in Shield Conversion - Front
Safety Overrides
Solar Shielding

This ship ends up with 0.35 shield efficiency which is even better against Remnants due to Solar Shielding, giving it a ridiculously strong shield from the high flux capacity. Weapon/shield flux is more than covered by flux dissipation thanks to Ordnance Expertise (2736 dissipation) and Elite Energy Weapon Mastery. You can deal with any content in the game with a pure fleet of these with hardly any risk of a loss, or you can use them alongside aggressive Radiant builds. Odyssey works fine as a player flagship alongside them which is nice since flying one of these is very boring.

I usually go with Eradicators, Champions, Conquests, Onslaughts, etc. but now and then it's fun to play with an overpowered aggressive close range fleet. 0.96 has significantly buffed it. The problem is not the Aurora, which is a balanced ship without SO. SO Fury is quite strong too, although with much higher risk of AI losses largely due to the ship system. SO Eagle is also substantially better now thanks to the Eagle buffs (better flux stats and 10 speed are huge). Both SO Eagle and Brawler LP can also now get a full 360 shield via built-in Extended Shields (filling the role of the shield conversion for the Aurora).
Always nice to find another Aurora user. I'm currently working on an SO build that makes use of two Ion pulsers, a heavy blaster, two antimatter blasters, with built in expanded mags for the dps increase.
For your build, dropping solar shielding and replacing it with one of built ins, and replacing one of the built ins with stabilized shields may be worth it. 10% of all incoming hard flux being turned into soft flux across the board may be more useful than a 10% decrease in energy weapon damage.
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Lawrence Master-blaster

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Re: Logistics is 90% of Combat
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2023, 09:02:28 PM »

RE: the SO Aurora, do you put Reckless officers on it?
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eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef

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Re: Logistics is 90% of Combat
« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2023, 09:30:03 PM »

RE: the SO Aurora, do you put Reckless officers on it?
Try aggressive first, it along with kill commands was enough for me. If that's not aggressive enough, switch to reckless. You can always switch officer behaviors around with the retrain button.
While SO Aurora is good, it's not a Hyperion, if it gets into trouble it can't simply teleport out of it. Which is why I'm recommend aggressive over reckless.
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strcat

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Re: Logistics is 90% of Combat
« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2023, 09:49:55 PM »

RE: the SO Aurora, do you put Reckless officers on it?

I use Aggressive officers with heavy use of eliminate orders and then Full Assault once we have a strong advantage. Can always cancel eliminate orders or force them to pull back if needed. They need to be coerced into being as aggressive as needed. Having a single mostly useless front turret PD weapon also helps them fly more aggressively. It could literally be a mining laser, but it might as well be a PD laser.

Always nice to find another Aurora user. I'm currently working on an SO build that makes use of two Ion pulsers, a heavy blaster, two antimatter blasters, with built in expanded mags for the dps increase.
For your build, dropping solar shielding and replacing it with one of built ins, and replacing one of the built ins with stabilized shields may be worth it. 10% of all incoming hard flux being turned into soft flux across the board may be more useful than a 10% decrease in energy weapon damage.

I think you're right about that. It ends up with a significant amount of extra flux dissipation that way: 2268 weapons flux (2520 reduced by Elite EWM) + 200 shield flux = 2468 and it has 2736 dissipation. The surplus also goes nicely with Elite Field Modulation. Need to drop capacitors down to 1x with the filled out front weapon slots if it's Hardened Shields or Hardened Subsystems being dropped since they cost 15 instead of 9. For AI ships, in addition to a single front PD weapon making them more aggressive, I think dropping at least a couple IR Pulse Lasers likely makes sense for higher capacitors.

I find that a long range fleet of Eradicators tends to lose ships more often than an SO fleet even without frigates on the field. Remnants can suddenly apply a lot of pressure and catch an overextended AI ship in a bad situation. Avoiding ship losses is why I mostly avoid frigates and destroyers especially due to story points invested into ships. Auroras are great at getting out of trouble unless a Tachyon Beam or Ion Beam takes out their engine which rarely ever happens. In a long range fleet, I need to be watching over the AI ships ready to save them. Conquest for long range and Odyssey for close range are both good at that.

Losing ships is terrible for logistics and even worse if you lose story points. I try to avoid reloading saves which means I tend to use almost entirely strong cruisers for the AI to avoid this. SO ships and then later an Odyssey can also do a lot on their own, saving a lot of supplies, but it stops mattering much late game. You can also start solo and then bring in the rest of the fleet if needed if you're using fast ships.

Champions being able to shoot squalls over each other helps a lot with avoiding being overwhelmed. Similarly, Vulcan Cannon is better solo PD than LR PD Laser but there's something to be said for them providing cover for each other. Groups of Eradicators are a lot more likely to get caught in a bad position where they can't support each other properly. In the 0.95.1a patch, I was quite convinced Eradicators were by far the strongest cruiser but ended up preferring Champions. Despite the Squall nerf, Champions benefit from more efficient HIL, Tactical Laser and the buff to Graviton Beam. I also don't think the Squall nerf really matters much in high pressure situations when it's paired with HIL. It only matters much at longer range in terms of it not working well as a finisher anymore, which doesn't impact their survivability much unless it ends up causing them to run out of missiles.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2023, 09:59:30 PM by strcat »
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Lucky33

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Re: Logistics is 90% of Combat
« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2023, 10:59:49 PM »

Oh, nice topic.

The thing is I have tried exactly that. Doing Industry first. Lets feel that the new player will feel they said...

Short version is:

I strongly advice new players to not pick the career of combat salvager. Because its a nightmare hardmode.

Regarding hullmods and skills.

In a rag-tag unoptimized fleet, all non-combat stuff only rises probability of receiving extra damage and thus ending up in the red. But the horrible truth is that with that fleet you will always end up in the red unless you attack convoys with supplies and fuel in the core. In my pursuit to do anything else I got crushed by the game through sheer mundanity of save scumming in attempts to organize a clean fight without that extra damage.

So at some point I had enough, bought myself Fury and some Omens for my officers and started, you know, to actually enjoy the game.

You can say whatever you want but in my eyes Industry-Logistics are a mere toppings on the fully combat specialized fleet. You can skip them altogether if you deem it necessary.
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TheLaughingDead

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Re: Logistics is 90% of Combat
« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2023, 03:32:01 PM »

Hmm, I almost always go with Industry as my first tree and find the game's combat to be a breeze up until Redacted/Super-Redacted (and it can mitigate some losses in those regards as well).
With the +50% carrying capacity, the player doesn't need to invest in dedicated logistics vessels other than maybe a Dram (Phaeton for midgame) and usually Hounds early game with Buffalo midgame. The +50% extra salvage gives exploration fleets a lot of leeway when doing derelict intel missions or Galactia missions, and the +20% combat salvage is pretty decent too if the fleet is handling mostly pirates or derelicts. The -50% supply use and fuel use skills in Tier 3 can result in coming out neutral or even ahead in supplies/fuel when doing missions out in the fringes. The primary bottleneck I hit is crew, but then again I like to play fast and loose early-game with some pirate vessels and the like (even deploying the Hounds if I feel the need), so I lose a lot of crew.

If a player were really trying to milk the "efficient explorer" theme, they'd pick up some efficient ships like Apogee. If the player wanted a more "combat salvage" theme, probably a Salvage Rig and would want to mix and match Industry with skills from other Techs. If a player is pure bounty-hunting, I'd still suggest a point or two in some of the early Industry, just one point to add +50% carry/fuel capacity is a lot before max level and especially in the early-game when the player doesn't always have all the ships or hullmods at their disposal to make the logistics work out. Respec is relatively cheap! Then again, picking fights will also matter more with Industry than skills in other Combat, Leadership, or Technology. I think the Tier 1 Tech skills help a lot with making sure a player doesn't end up face-first in a Luddic Armada looking to shake a player down. And while respec is relatively cheap, the cost of fleeing every nasty fleet a new player bumps into can add up quickly.

But as others have said, going into the endgame, other than Derelict Op (which can yield impressive combat results if properly planned for) the Industry tree offers a lot less than the other trees. Then again, I think people that farm double+ ordos are a tiny minority of total players. Most people I see talking about the game play in a totally different way than I do as well, some explore, some aim to do the quests and soak up lore, some like to run bounties only, a lot of players just smuggle between colonies. I think the Industry skill has a lot more to offer those people than it has to offer a combat junkie or endgame min-maxer.
I check these forums so often, sometimes it is weird to consider that likely 95%+ of Starsector players don't even post or look here. I need to touch grass Bit of a gaming bubble, one might say :-*
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