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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Toning down the Monitor Menace >:)  (Read 2564 times)

Cruacious

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Re: Toning down the Monitor Menace >:)
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2023, 10:55:03 AM »

The monitor is really only held back by the fact that the AI uses fortress shields poorly, but even with that it is quite powerful.
What exactly is the power of Monitor ship? Endless kiting ?
You should try Afflictor build for kitting it is even better, cheaper, does more damage and dont need pilot.
The problem with the monitor is it is a kiting tank that can be used to distract the AI of your ships (or the enemies) VERY CHEAPLY. The fortress shield it has is annoyingly hard to drop for a ship that size. It can tank damage to a level that is way too similar to the capital-class from which the shield is derived, the Paragon. A stack of these ships is a GREAT way to distract Remnants while your damage deals fly behind and punch without much return fire if you manage the fleet well. Now, they aren't perfect but they are far too powerful of a tool for a cheap frigate in my opinion.
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Draba

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Re: Toning down the Monitor Menace >:)
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2023, 12:04:26 PM »

What exactly is the power of Monitor ship? Endless kiting ?
You should try Afflictor build for kitting it is even better, cheaper, does more damage and dont need pilot.
Park an Afflictor between a fluxed cruiser and a Radiant, let us know how well it went :)
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gG_pilot

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Re: Toning down the Monitor Menace >:)
« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2023, 11:44:22 PM »

The monitor is really only held back by the fact that the AI uses fortress shields poorly, but even with that it is quite powerful.
What exactly is the power of Monitor ship? Endless kiting ?
You should try Afflictor build for kitting it is even better, cheaper, does more damage and dont need pilot.
The problem with the monitor is it is a kiting tank that can be used to distract the AI of your ships (or the enemies) VERY CHEAPLY.
Afflictor can do bigger distraction  plus dmg  plus debuff plus has higher survivability. Price is the same. Dont understand why you asking nerf  second best kiting frigate while the first best kiting machine is left untouched.  Perhaps the AI fleet generator use Monitor more often than Afflictors ?

I think, that clear split for kitting, dmg dealer & healer roles for ships would help  gameplay more than piling up endless  heaps of  bonuses.

What if Salvage gantry hullmode get 3 repair drones armed with mining laser with rage  of 500units. These drones has top priority "combat task" fix armor and hull  of own  ship  then fix friendly ships  in combat ?
« Last Edit: March 12, 2023, 03:41:20 AM by gG_pilot »
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gG_pilot

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Re: Toning down the Monitor Menace >:)
« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2023, 11:58:44 PM »

What exactly is the power of Monitor ship? Endless kiting ?
You should try Afflictor build for kitting it is even better, cheaper, does more damage and dont need pilot.
Park an Afflictor between a fluxed cruiser and a Radiant, let us know how well it went :)
How would you  describe word kiting or distraction ?
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smithney

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Re: Toning down the Monitor Menace >:)
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2023, 12:02:41 AM »

Afflictor can do bigger distraction  plus dmg  plus debuff plus has higher survivibility. Price is the same. Dont understand why you asking nerf  second best kiting frigate while the first best kiting machine is left untouched.
Yeah but can you actually save your fluxed cruiser from a Radiant with it? Furthermore do you have something to keep the other hypothetical Radiant occupied while you go on your Afflictor hijinks? Because Monitor is something that can reliably do just that for mere 6DP
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gG_pilot

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Re: Toning down the Monitor Menace >:)
« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2023, 03:34:54 AM »

Yeah but can you actually save your fluxed cruiser from a Radiant with it?
Afflictor gives distraction, it is kiting nightmare. It attract opponent  attacks then avoid damage. It is not  a mobile shield. Second, if your Cruisers tank  Radiant, you do  something wrong. Never take a knife to the gun fight.
Furthermore do you have something to keep the other hypothetical Radiant occupied while you go on your Afflictor hijinks? Because Monitor is something that can reliably do just that for mere 6DP
Yes. Afflictor cost 6DP the pirate version. Hi-tech Afflictor for 10DP offers more firepower (2 more small slots) but same distraction level, not so kiting efficient.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2023, 03:48:40 AM by gG_pilot »
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BCS

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Re: Toning down the Monitor Menace >:)
« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2023, 04:47:23 AM »

Yeah but can you actually save your fluxed cruiser from a Radiant with it?

You shouldn't be able to do it with a Monitor either, the Radiant will prioritize finishing off the cruiser over shooting a "fresh" ship. Well unless you're manually piloting the Monitor and physically block the line of fire.
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SafariJohn

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Re: Toning down the Monitor Menace >:)
« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2023, 07:31:51 AM »

Yeah but can you actually save your fluxed cruiser from a Radiant with it?

You shouldn't be able to do it with a Monitor either, the Radiant will prioritize finishing off the cruiser over shooting a "fresh" ship. Well unless you're manually piloting the Monitor and physically block the line of fire.

You assign the Monitor to eliminate the Radiant. I don't know what world you are living in where the AI will go past a fresh ship to finish off a different one because I have seen the opposite behavior over and over.
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SapphireSage

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Re: Toning down the Monitor Menace >:)
« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2023, 07:28:21 PM »

I'd agree that the monitor should probably deserve a nerf. Most players eventually learn that one of the best things a frigate can do is distract 3 destroyers and a cruiser off to the far end corner of the map to be mostly useless for the whole fight, or kill the frigate at best. Monitors however, are able to distract such a large group consistently, and more importantly can make said group useless in the battle line itself by just having it ram itself and its nigh impenetrable fortress shield into the middle of them with an eliminate order and a couple Dual MGs. Whenever I run Wolfpack Tactics I usually bring 3/4 officerless monitors along and will thoughtlessly and immediately give them the eliminate command on any capitals that show up and they'll basically make the caps + escorts a non-factor for the whole rest of the fight because they waste all their time firing at a tiny invincible ball till the wolfpack's ready to gang up on them. The only time I lost a monitor with that was against a Radiant packing a bunch of tachyons because the EMP arcs destroyed it past its fortress shield.

I also tend to see its use recommended *very* frequently on the StarSector reddit, for what that's worth.
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gG_pilot

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Re: Toning down the Monitor Menace >:)
« Reply #24 on: March 14, 2023, 07:46:27 AM »

players eventually learn that one of the best things a frigate can do is distract

 Monitors however, are able to distract such a large group consistently,
try this Afflictor menace :
https://i.imgur.com/gK0FynH.png
Base speed 223 can be further rised by  20%  Coordianted maneuvres/Nav Relays. It is nice 275 speed. On  top + 50 for no flux speed bonus.
With this speed it can not be hit by any  rocket or torpedo. Most ballistic weapons are also too slow. There is only chance to  hit for lasers who has long range AND fast turn  rate >> something like LRPD  laser on capital ship with ITU. Other lasers cant keep target in focus so beam disassemble before it hit target. On top in case of overwhelming firepower,  it uses phase. Also set Cautious for "default" fleet behaviour.
I wish Mr. Alex add this build into AI  fleet generator, so all of you complaining Monitor, could face real nightmare.  8)

Few of these then add Onslaught with  aggressive pilot so you see how proverb " like  shooting fish  in a barrel"  came into life. Opponents would hopelessly try hit or chase Affilctors, meanwhile are consumed by big boy.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2023, 08:17:21 AM by gG_pilot »
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Rusty Edge

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Re: Toning down the Monitor Menace >:)
« Reply #25 on: March 15, 2023, 04:23:28 AM »

It seems like what is needed is a tricky ship A.I. update, more than anything else.
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Draz

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Re: Toning down the Monitor Menace >:)
« Reply #26 on: March 27, 2023, 06:46:26 PM »

I agree: the AI should learn that monitors are mostly just mobile shields for other targets and they should avoid focusing on them. That would take away the weird tactic where you can bait a bunch of the enemy fleet into wasting time shooting at and chasing a nearly unkillable ship that can't hurt them.

Monitors would still be useful for physically screening other ships.
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Doctorhealsgood

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Re: Toning down the Monitor Menace >:)
« Reply #27 on: March 28, 2023, 01:39:46 PM »

On that case monitor ai should actively try to get in the way of enemy fire.
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Quote from: Doctorhealsgood
Sometimes i feel like my brain has been hit by salamanders not gonna lie.
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