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[Doctorhealsgood]

They used to have three mortars I believe and were hilariously powerful.

There was a bug that caused their mortars to hit multiple times per shot. For some reason they still got nerfed when the bug was fixed.

So uh. Any reason why it got nerfed regardless?

[Bummelei]

I have tried 100 dissipation on warthogs before and they were definitely too powerful. Maybe an increase to capacity rather than dissipation would be better.

I agree that x2 maybe too much, so why don't we multiply caps and vents by 1.5 to make them more consistent?  How about that?

[Alex]

Ah, this is a fun one! I messed around and tried a few things with it just now, after reading this thread, and remembered a lot of the reasons for why it is how it is.

Countering frigates (to some extent, obviously not something like the Omen) is the job of interceptor-type fighters, right? Talon, Gladius, etc. For the Warthog, I wanted a fighter that could pose a bit of a threat to larger ships without also completely dominating frigates and taking over that part of the role from interceptors.

If the Warthog is significantly faster than a typical frigate, then it seems near-impossible - it'll get around most frigate shields and swarm them, almost regardless of what its actual weapons are. So, it's got to be slow.

But even that's not enough - if e.g. you arm it with a pair of Vulcan cannons, slow or not, it will absolutely *shred* frigates. And some destroyers, too. That's where the Light Mortar came in; something that's going to miss enough vs frigates to where it's fairly ineffective. It's just about the only weapon in the ballistic lineup that fits the requirements!

One thing I noticed just now, though, is that flameouts tend to account for a lot of Warthog downtime. So, a fairly targeted buff: adding Insulated Engine Assembly to it. This keeps it slow but gives it more consistency, and the extra 10% hull is a nice but not overpowered bonus. I kind of like where it's at with that, honestly.

2000 units leash range is not a lot, it's true. But raising it, it feels potentially risky - the Warthog is in a sort of spot where if it's overtuned even slightly, it could easily become the ideal fighter to mass, at the expense of any sort of fighter combination. The reduced range helps guard against that.

[SafariJohn]

Warthogs are boring and feel weak, so I never use them. Give them some flashy weapon. Swarmers, maybe.

2000 leash range is probably an upside because it ensures replacements bring their guns to bear quickly.

[Thaago]

Here is some old data that someone put together on fighter combo performance btw: https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=21762.0

I think that might be from the last game version? But interesting how the warthog performed consistently well in those tests.

[CapnHector]

Do I have this correct that Warthog was the only source of HE damage in that test, since the Heron had a Pilum (I guess?) and no bombers were included?

E: was another source - Swarmer on Talon and Thunder. But so it shows that multiples of the fighter with a HE weapon killed the cruiser somewhat faster than other combos. However, wouldn't a battlecarrier prefer big HE guns and kinetic from fighters, and a dedicated carrier prefer bombers? Don't know about Heron though, haven't used it this version. I seem to remember generally putting HVDs on those.

[FooF]

@Alex

You seem to be giving every reason possible to just make them Support fighters. Slow speed, tight leash, inaccurate weapons…all so they don’t murder Frigates (which is valid!) but it is overshadowing the original “gunboat” intent.

If Warthogs were Support fighters, they could likely stand to have different weapons and utility. If a Frigate did cross them, it *would* get shredded and that would be expected. It’s not like we have an HE support fighter right now. Or if it was considered support but had a 1000 range leash instead of 0.

I guess my point is that the consideration for murdering Frigates is dominating the design for the Warthog when, IMO, it shouldn’t and/or could be alleviated in other ways.

[Megas]

You seem to be giving every reason possible to just make them Support fighters. Slow speed, tight leash, inaccurate weapons…all so they don’t murder Frigates (which is valid!) but it seems to overshadow the original “gunboat” intent.

Yes.

What I dislike about Warthogs is they are so slow that even cruisers can outrun them.  If Warthogs manage to catch something, they may get a couple shots off before the enemy gets the message and runs away.  It is hard for Warthogs to hurt anything.  Warthogs feel like they have the speed of a bomber, but without the firepower.  The only good thing about Warthogs is durability, but Broadswords are nearly as durable, and cheaper and simply more practical all-around too.

In some previous, recent releases, after Warthogs were weakened, I would just take a bomber instead.  Today, I take Broadswords instead, unless I want a support fighter that is not Xyphos for a battlecarrier (but I usually want fast fighters on a carrier because the carrier is too slow to catch cowardly fast ships).

Problem with too short leash is the ship would lose zero-flux bonus when engaged (which NPC ships will do), but the fighters are so close to the carrier that they might as well stick to the ship like a support fighter.

I sort of treat Warthogs as a homing weapon with range comparable to the longest ranged guns a battleship can use.  Stuff like Gauss or beams with Paragon's ATC.

Warthogs sort of function more like ship repellant or area denial, which, okay... fine, but kind of disappointing.  Not what I had in mind for something with its namesake that would just kill stuff if it was another game.

[FooF]

To Megas’ point, it’s hard to pick the Warthog over the identically-priced Khopesh because of all the restrictions on the Warthog. Why not just get the Bomber that is also slow, can’t hit frigates, and deals HE (except in boatloads not via a drip)? It’s a little apples and oranges comparison but outside of Flares, what more does the Warthog bring to the table?

[Bummelei]

Ah, this is a fun one! I messed around and tried a few things with it just now, after reading this thread, and remembered a lot of the reasons for why it is how it is.

Countering frigates (to some extent, obviously not something like the Omen) is the job of interceptor-type fighters, right? Talon, Gladius, etc. For the Warthog, I wanted a fighter that could pose a bit of a threat to larger ships without also completely dominating frigates and taking over that part of the role from interceptors.

If the Warthog is significantly faster than a typical frigate, then it seems near-impossible - it'll get around most frigate shields and swarm them, almost regardless of what its actual weapons are. So, it's got to be slow.

Exactly why i thought about Burn Drive system. It gives Warthogs an initial jump, and if target is nimble enough (frigates), they still will be able to outrun them. They don't need to chase small targets, but need consistency in chasing medium ones.

But even that's not enough - if e.g. you arm it with a pair of Vulcan cannons, slow or not, it will absolutely *shred* frigates. And some destroyers, too. That's where the Light Mortar came in; something that's going to miss enough vs frigates to where it's fairly ineffective. It's just about the only weapon in the ballistic lineup that fits the requirements!

The idea of Vulcans in this case is to enable anti-fighter capabilities because of their extremely poor perfomance in that field. Like, any other fighter doing this job better.
Alternative solution is to give them more flux-stats to use it's guns reliably.

2000 units leash range is not a lot, it's true. But raising it, it feels potentially risky - the Warthog is in a sort of spot where if it's overtuned even slightly, it could easily become the ideal fighter to mass, at the expense of any sort of fighter combination. The reduced range helps guard against that.

Maybe it guards too much. It's not about making them OP, but to make them function properly. How about a small range tweaks of 500-1000su? I doubt it will instantly make them overtuned.

[BigBrainEnergy]

I think you're forgetting that warthogs can quickly get out of hand if they're too good at their job. They're only 12 op and can easily overwhelm high-tech and midline cruisers (with some kinetic support). Insulated engines seems like a good reliability buff. I like it.

[Thaago]

To Megas’ point, it’s hard to pick the Warthog over the identically-priced Khopesh because of all the restrictions on the Warthog. Why not just get the Bomber that is also slow, can’t hit frigates, and deals HE (except in boatloads not via a drip)? It’s a little apples and oranges comparison but outside of Flares, what more does the Warthog bring to the table?

Khopesh are 180 speed btw.

Re: cruisers: I find that most cruisers cannot outrun warthogs - that would need a base speed equivalent of 80 + a 0 flux boost. It can be difficult for warthogs to first engage with a fleeing 0 flux cruiser as the speed difference isn't that high, but fleeing cruisers usually have flux on them so thats rarely an issue. I find that warthogs can realistically engage mid speed destroyers and slower - typically the enemy doesn't run away from them, especially if they are in a formation.

It can take a long time for a group of fighters with a warthog in them to travel anywhere though.

[Alex]

You seem to be giving every reason possible to just make them Support fighters. Slow speed, tight leash, inaccurate weapons…all so they don’t murder Frigates (which is valid!) but it is overshadowing the original “gunboat” intent.
...
I guess my point is that the consideration for murdering Frigates is dominating the design for the Warthog when, IMO, it shouldn’t and/or could be alleviated in other ways.

The original intent is very much "a fighter that can mix it up with larger ships without also murdering frigates" So yeah, much of how it works is geared towards that, but I think it's warranted!

If Warthogs were Support fighters, they could likely stand to have different weapons and utility. If a Frigate did cross them, it *would* get shredded and that would be expected. It’s not like we have an HE support fighter right now. Or if it was considered support but had a 1000 range leash instead of 0.

I did think about making it support, but honestly, it's just a totally different fighter at that point!

To Megas’ point, it’s hard to pick the Warthog over the identically-priced Khopesh because of all the restrictions on the Warthog. Why not just get the Bomber that is also slow, can’t hit frigates, and deals HE (except in boatloads not via a drip)? It’s a little apples and oranges comparison but outside of Flares, what more does the Warthog bring to the table?

Just for the heck of it, tried a combination of Heron with 3x Warthog, ordered to escort a friendly "Outdated" Dominator, against a pair of Dominators - the outdated and the one with the Typoon reapers. And then tried it using 3x Khopesh instead. The Heron + Dominator side lost both times, but with the Warthogs it got ugly - one enemy Dominator down, another at less than half hull. With the Khopeshes, both enemy Dominators had near-full hull.

Which isn't to say that the Khopesh is bad or even worse - just, as you say, it's apples and oranges. What the Warthog provides is a lot of damage-soaking, enough to seriously hamper and distract even powerful cruisers. E.G. the Mora with 3x Warthogs can make a respectable (if losing) showing against the *new* Aurora; bombers don't let it do that.

The replacement time is just 10 seconds, and the fighter is really tough, so the replacement rate has more of a chance to recover than it does most of the time. It's basically a "put the enemy ship in an ugly fight" fighter. Which means it probably pairs best with battlecarriers or carriers ordered to escort a ship that's both going to push the fight and can sustain it.

None of this necessarily means that it's strong or balanced. I do think it works in this role, though; I'm not sure adjusting its weapons loadout is the way to go if anything else is needed - the weapons do the job they're supposed to, which is make it difficult to ignore for larger ships while also not hurting frigates overmuch.

Exactly why i thought about Burn Drive system. It gives Warthogs an initial jump, and if target is nimble enough (frigates), they still will be able to outrun them. They don't need to chase small targets, but need consistency in chasing medium ones.

Yep, makes sense! I think adding Insulated Engines accomplishes much the same thing while being more consistent for the AI to use and letting them keep decoy flares, which really help their survivability.

The idea of Vulcans in this case is to enable anti-fighter capabilities because of their extremely poor perfomance in that field. Like, any other fighter doing this job better.
Alternative solution is to give them more flux-stats to use it's guns reliably.

I think it's hard to give it anti-fighter capabilities without also making it wreck frigates.

Maybe it guards too much. It's not about making them OP, but to make them function properly. How about a small range tweaks of 500-1000su? I doubt it will instantly make them overtuned.

Perhaps! I could see giving it 500 more range, to be honest. I'll... keep an eye on that. It *is* pretty risky, though; make it too much and if too many different carriers can easily stack them on the same target, it gets to be too much. Fighter range is kind of exponential in its effect.

Re: cruisers: I find that most cruisers cannot outrun warthogs - that would need a base speed equivalent of 80 + a 0 flux boost. It can be difficult for warthogs to first engage with a fleeing 0 flux cruiser as the speed difference isn't that high, but fleeing cruisers usually have flux on them so thats rarely an issue. I find that warthogs can realistically engage mid speed destroyers and slower - typically the enemy doesn't run away from them, especially if they are in a formation.

Yep! What they really outrun is the Warthog's engagement range. Which, again, I think makes it better on carriers that get close to the action.

It can take a long time for a group of fighters with a warthog in them to travel anywhere though.

... and so does this. I don't know that they mix particularly well with other fighters, really. The more of them you have, the harder they are to get rid of. Something like Broadswords can be ok, but from a bit of testing it feels like that's sometimes worse and only occasionally marginally better. Fighters don't need anti-shield quite as much if they swarm the target; Broadswords make a good first wave in front of bombers, and sure, they help Warthogs too, it's just not that clear-cut vs "more Warthogs", imo.

[FooF]

Fair points. My test bed was definitely at a much smaller scale so the ability of Warthogs to “clog” even Dominators (which typically have good PD) went unnoticed. I tend to look at single wings of Warthogs as part of a combined arms approach rather than swarms of them. I don’t know what the average use-case is. *My* usual application of them is on Heron or Mora with a Broadsword and and a Bomber for an all-rounder kind of set up. Strong kinetic, lingering HE and then the punch of the bomber. In these cases, the Warthogs probably do more than I give them credit for but never feel particularly powerful in and of themselves.

The key phrase that I really didn’t think about is “they have a 10 second replacement time.” I forgot that they are so easily replaceable yet being individually very tough. Perhaps the more accurate description for them is “expendable bullet sponges that do damage” rather than “elite gunboats”. Or to put it another way, I should value what they do defensively more than what they do offensively. Every shot they take isn’t being directed toward weaker fighters or other more expensive craft.

[Igncom1]

Anything that lurks really frightens the AI. A torpedo attack might only last a few seconds, but any lingering munitions can make them paranoid enough to divert their shields or even turn to face the fighters over any other threats they face.