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Author Topic: "Energy" Onslaught actually works  (Read 6701 times)

BCS

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Re: "Energy" Onslaught actually works
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2023, 07:23:37 PM »

In regards to Onslaught effectiveness and bringing weapons to bear, I find that Onslaughts essentially define the line of fighting, so they shouldn't need to turn all that much, especially against an opposing capital or cruiser line.

TPCs have firing arc of 5 degrees, so even a small turn of 10 degrees gets them completely off target.

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Not sure how Paragon beams hit 2500+.  I thought vanilla max beam range on a Paragon was 1000 * (1 + 1 + 0.15) + 200 = 2350.

I assumed Advanced Optics affects base weapon range because that's what the description implies.

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To be honest, in a 6 vs 6 AI controlled Conquest vs Onslaught matchup, I'd put my money on the Onslaughts. Actually...

Yes, what better way to test AI getting distracted than by removing all distractions?
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Hatter

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Re: "Energy" Onslaught actually works
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2023, 07:37:27 PM »

TPCs aren't as effected by time off target due to being charged based.

Advanced Optics is a flat increase. It lacks the base range modifier description Ballistic Rangefinder has.

If the Conquests can't beat the Onslaughts without distraction, I don't see why they'd do any better with them.
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: "Energy" Onslaught actually works
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2023, 11:32:34 PM »

In regards to Onslaught effectiveness and bringing weapons to bear, I find that Onslaughts essentially define the line of fighting, so they shouldn't need to turn all that much, especially against an opposing capital or cruiser line.

TPCs have firing arc of 5 degrees, so even a small turn of 10 degrees gets them completely off target.

5 degrees at range 1600 (1000 * 1.6 from Integrated Targeting Unit) is 1600 * sin(pi/180*5) = 140 units.  At half range, distance 800, that's 70 units.  For something like a Champion with say a 20% speed buff, so 60*1.2 = 72, it still takes a good second to cross that much distance assuming you're moving transverse, so you'll still be getting shots off.  Its not a super tight tolerance.

An Onslaught with Heavy Armor (which is a default on my builds) takes ~28 seconds to do a 360 turn once at maximum rotation rate (12.8 degrees/second).  With any one of Auxilliary Thrusters, Helmsmanship or Elite Impact mitigation it drops to ~24 seconds to do a 360 turn (15 degrees/second).

So at 1600 range, an Onslaught with a -10% maneuverability malus and +50% maneuverability bonus, can keep up with a transverse speed of ~400 units/second.  At range 800, its roughly 200 units/second.  Admittedly, that is not changing acceleration and changing rotation speed which takes some time, but I've never seen an Onslaught have serious issues hitting cruisers or capitals on a battle line with TPCs.

You have to actually get pretty close to be able to get under the TPC guns completely, which most non-maneuverability system cruiser and capitals cannot do, and certainly won't do under enemy AI control.  Skilled officers on the Onslaught plus Auxilliary thrusters combined make it even harder to pull off.

Even if you get that close, it's not like the Onslaught doesn't have side guns.  It can realistically bring more ballistic guns to bear than a Conquest anywhere in its front 150 degree arc, except for two small arc slivers. Essentially, it's got 2 turreted large Ballistics and 4 medium ballistics in that forward 150 degree arc.

So it mostly comes down to escort orders in a real campaign to keep frigates and destroyers away from the rear and flanks.

I assumed Advanced Optics affects base weapon range because that's what the description implies.

Cumulative in my mind means added with, not multiplied with, but I can see the confusion the wording might cause.  Clearest comparison I can provide is take a look at Ballistic Rangefinder which is explicit about base range.  You can also test relatively easy in game.  Clearest might be simply set a beam weapon in the weapon_data.csv to have base range 1, and see what ITU + advanced optics on a capital looks like versus just advanced optics.

Yes, what better way to test AI getting distracted than by removing all distractions?

Admittedly, this was a quick 5 minute test.  I'm open to suggestions for comparisons.

Taking a bit more time now to play around with it, I've got two conclusions:

1) Given the missile focused nature of Conquests, they actually tend to be much better at clearing frigates/destroyers than Onslaughts.  The ability to focus fire over their allied frigates is just really strong.  So like if I do a 4 capitals + X frigates/destroyers on both sides, the Conquests actually tend to come out on top depending on exact fittings.  Onslaught support just disappears that much faster at which point 4 capitals + support beats 4 capitals.

2) Oddly enough, a set of appropriately configured 6 Onslaughts by themselves can handle both 6 Conquests or say, 4 Conquests with a bunch of frigate distractions.   Given the heavy missile focus properly configured Conquests can bring to bear (actually throwing on Expanded Missile Racks/ECCM and a full compliment of large and medium missiles (say Squalls + Harpoons) mixed with decent guns (Say Mjolnirs + Hypervelocity or Heavy Maulers), Onslaughts need something like IPDAI and a set of Proximity Charge Launchers to actually clear incoming Squall streams (plus some Flak), but once they reach sufficient PD, they actually handle the situation pretty well.  For such an Onslaught fleet, Reckless AI actually seems to work well.

Particular attachment was running Mark IX, 2 Mjolnirs, 2 Hypervelocity drivers,1 Dual Flak, 4 Flak, 6 Vulcans, Heavy Armor, ITU, Expanded Missile Racks, IPDAI, Armored Weapon Mounts.  It was up against 2x Squall,2x Harpoon 2x Mjolnir, 2x Hypervelocity Driver, 4x Flak, 10x PD laser, ITU, Expanded Missile Racks, ECCM Conquests, and tempest_Attack variants.

This is all skill-less mind you, so the Onslaughts are much more over fluxed than they would be in a campaign with Ordinance Expertise on officers.

Although, to bring it back around to the actual thread, I also tried a non-officered, no s-mod, non-XIV variation on the energy weapon Onslaught presented in the opening, so 6 minipulsers, a cryoblaster, and a Voltile Particle driver, Harpoons instead of Reapers (because AI), with ITU, Ballistic Range Finder and Heavy armor.  6 Onslaughts vs 4 Conquests + 10 tempest_Attack had a pretty solid victory (only 1 Onslaught lost).  Not sure what to take away from Omega weaponed Onslaughts, but it definitely works reasonably.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2023, 12:15:37 AM by Hiruma Kai »
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BCS

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Re: "Energy" Onslaught actually works
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2023, 03:31:28 AM »

So at 1600 range, an Onslaught with a -10% maneuverability malus and +50% maneuverability bonus, can keep up with a transverse speed of ~400 units/second.  At range 800, its roughly 200 units/second.

What is this, EVE? Anyway okay, let's assume 400 units/second. A typical cruiser is about 400 units in diameter(shield) but in battle ships tend to not get that close to one another and you see something more like this. In which case to switch from one target to another you need about 3 seconds, not counting acceleration/deceleration and assuming max range at which only TPCs are firing.

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So it mostly comes down to escort orders in a real campaign to keep frigates and destroyers away from the rear and flanks.

And are you including the DP cost of said escorts when doing capital comparisons?
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Draba

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Re: "Energy" Onslaught actually works
« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2023, 05:19:52 AM »

...
Skipping the theory part, easiest way to demonstrate what you mean would be a savegame where Conquest works really well under AI control (with S-mods and officers).
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Vanshilar

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Re: "Energy" Onslaught actually works
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2023, 05:36:34 AM »

To be honest, in a 6 vs 6 AI controlled Conquest vs Onslaught matchup, I'd put my money on the Onslaughts.  Actually...

I'm not sure if, in comparing fleets A and B, the best method is to have fleet A fight fleet B. Since this is a single-player game where we fight computer-generated fleets, it'd be better to look at how they fare against some fleet C that's representative of those computer-generated fleets. In this particular case, since Onslaughts are very much frontal-focused, I'd expect them to fare pretty well against big ships (such as Conquests) as opposed to a more general fleet.

In terms of player-controlled, I'd say the Onslaught is better, mostly because of Prox spam, and because I never figured out how to pilot broadside ships well. However, in terms of AI-controlled, I'm not sure what a good Onslaught build is for that, so suggestions are welcome.

Based on my past work with Conquests, however, I threw a Squall/Mjolnir/Harpoon/HVD Conquest spam fleet, supported by me in a (non-SO, non-Omega) Medusa as flagship, and an Eradicator, to see how quickly they could finish off my double Ordos test fleet. The Eradicator and myself focused on grabbing objectives and taking care of any spillover enemy ships that got away, while the Conquests took the main enemy fleet.

Results are attached. I did just one run, and finished the battle in 316 seconds. Using the same assumptions as here (assume fighting time is total battle time - 60 seconds), the Conquests averaged 667 DPS. Using the same DP "worth" estimation of DPS/12.5, this comes out to around 53.4 DP, when it actually costs 40 DP. So the Conquest compares favorably to all cruisers I've tested except the Gryphon.

I guess then it depends on the best anti-Ordos Onslaught build that someone can come up with for the AI to use.
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BCS

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Re: "Energy" Onslaught actually works
« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2023, 08:42:07 AM »

...
Skipping the theory part, easiest way to demonstrate what you mean would be a savegame where Conquest works really well under AI control (with S-mods and officers).

I mean, but since all endgame content involves enemies with very strong shields, Conquests are automatically the best simply because they can mount two Squalls(which is the ultimate anti-shield weapon) Good or bad ship AI has little to do with it.

[Edit]I have no idea how to make the video NOT embedded...
« Last Edit: February 21, 2023, 10:14:58 AM by BCS »
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Igncom1

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Re: "Energy" Onslaught actually works
« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2023, 08:52:42 AM »

Yeah poor armour never gets to the point where I have ever felt the need to have more then a couple anti-armour weapons on a ship.

But against the remnants I'm only packing the needed minimum HE and making just about every other weapon a kinetic or energy.

I did once use a fully kinetic weapon fleet against a couple conquests.... they all died from CR which showed me that you do need SOME HE, but you never need much because the AI will get flux-ed out trying to use it's shield even against foes who can't even hurt them.
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Draba

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Re: "Energy" Onslaught actually works
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2023, 09:30:00 AM »

but since all endgame content involves enemies with very strong shields, Conquests are automatically the best simply because they can mount two Squalls(which is the ultimate anti-shield weapon) Good or bad ship AI has little to do with it.
That's a typo right there, you meant Gryphon or Atlas MkIIs tucked behind a few Onslaughts :)

I'm not sure if, in comparing fleets A and B, the best method is to have fleet A fight fleet B. Since this is a single-player game where we fight computer-generated fleets, it'd be better to look at how they fare against some fleet C that's representative of those computer-generated fleets.
...
Results are attached. I did just one run, and finished the battle in 316 seconds. Using the same assumptions as here (assume fighting time is total battle time - 60 seconds), the Conquests averaged 667 DPS. Using the same DP "worth" estimation of DPS/12.5, this comes out to around 53.4 DP, when it actually costs 40 DP. So the Conquest compares favorably to all cruisers I've tested except the Gryphon.
Let's take another step back: if you want to compare ships why are you comparing monofleets of those ships?
Why is the battle length metric the one that matters? Getting the same vibes from that as the conquest math model thread, hyperfocused on things that ultimately do not mean much.

Onslaught can be parked on the front, will not die and will do lots of damage.
Will benefit a lot from having overhead support like Astral, Atlas MKII, Gryphon (if Gryphon didn't kill everything double dead by itself anyway).
Gives better cover to phase ships. A mostly Onslaught fleet still works ofc, just not what it's best at.

Was a bit of a tangent anyway, the main point was Onslaught being bad in AI hands.
It's one of the ships that's hardest to make mistakes in, even if the AI burns into the middle of the enemy fleet that just means your frontline is now 1000 units further ahead :)
From the start of the game to the end Onslaught will do its part, even when your fleet doesn't have a critical mass of squalls.

« Last Edit: February 21, 2023, 09:32:39 AM by Draba »
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FooF

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Re: "Energy" Onslaught actually works
« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2023, 10:11:46 AM »

As a complete aside, and I know it can’t be helped right now but it sure would be nice if there was another “endgame” enemy type that wasn’t High Tech. There’s nothing wrong with Remnants but every discussion boils down to “yeah, but how does it do against Ordos.” Imagine if there were Derelict Swarms that were every bit as endgame as Ordos: how much HE you could output would be another measure of success. Squalls wouldn’t be as important, CR might matter more, etc.
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Grievous69

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Re: "Energy" Onslaught actually works
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2023, 10:17:33 AM »

I suggested that exact same thing, and I'm sure there are others who mentioned it here on this forum.
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Draba

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Re: "Energy" Onslaught actually works
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2023, 10:17:39 AM »

As a complete aside, and I know it can’t be helped right now but it sure would be nice if there was another “endgame” enemy type that wasn’t High Tech. There’s nothing wrong with Remnants but every discussion boils down to “yeah, but how does it do against Ordos.” Imagine if there were Derelict Swarms that were every bit as endgame as Ordos: how much HE you could output would be another measure of success. Squalls wouldn’t be as important, CR might matter more, etc.
Yeah, that's the only reason I tried Nex again this version.
Invasion fleets are still not as strong as ordos (weak smod+officer combos), but still a nice change of pace.
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llama

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Re: "Energy" Onslaught actually works
« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2023, 10:20:13 AM »

As a complete aside, and I know it can’t be helped right now but it sure would be nice if there was another “endgame” enemy type that wasn’t High Tech. There’s nothing wrong with Remnants but every discussion boils down to “yeah, but how does it do against Ordos.”
Yeah, I'd love to see more "endgame"-level challenge fleets for each faction
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BCS

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Re: "Energy" Onslaught actually works
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2023, 10:33:17 AM »

That's a typo right there, you meant Gryphon or Atlas MkIIs tucked behind a few Onslaughts :)

Even if you consider two Gryphons equivalent to one Conquest(and I certainly prefer the ballistic slots and tank and range and not suicidal AI of the Conquest) the latter still has twice as good officer economy. As for Atlas Mk2... that's a disaster waiting to happen
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WhisperDSP

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Re: "Energy" Onslaught actually works
« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2023, 11:03:49 AM »

I once had a double Hegemony AI inspection fleet with 3 & 4 Onslaughts. I slipped up and found myself fighting them both at once. /rofl
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