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Starsector 0.98a is out! (03/27/25)

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Author Topic: "Energy" Onslaught actually works  (Read 10758 times)

BigBrainEnergy

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"Energy" Onslaught actually works
« on: February 19, 2023, 08:58:35 PM »

Energy Onslaught
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I was thinking about how to maximize energy weapon mastery and realized it would work best on ships that can survive high flux, especially when paired with with polarized armor. The problem is that the only high-tech ship that fits the bill is the paragon, and it's too slow to get in close.

Then it occurred to me: onslaughts have a burn drive, and built-in energy weapons. If you fill in the other slots with hybrids, wouldn't that make it better to take EWM over ballistic mastery? You can compensate for the shorter range with ballistic rangefinder. As if it couldn't get any better, they benefit from expanded mags which you were getting anyways for your thermal cannons... only downside is paying full price for the particle driver in the large slot, but then again burn drive mitigates the issue of only 50% of shots reaching max range so it's more powerful than it normally would be.

Energy onslaught sounds like something you would see in a fever dream... (or in every mod ever) but turns out it's actually pretty good.
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IonDragonX

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Re: "Energy" Onslaught actually works
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2023, 10:37:31 PM »

Energy onslaught sounds like something you would see in a fever dream...
I was about to say, he's a mad lad!
I guess it works late game if you can grind the exact [REDACTED] weapons. The odds are not in the player's favor there.
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BCS

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Re: "Energy" Onslaught actually works
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2023, 11:46:16 PM »

This actually brings up one of the long-standing "problems" with the Onslaught: it's supposed to be the biggest, baddest ballistic ship in the game but its main battery are two energy weapons...
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SonnaBanana

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Re: "Energy" Onslaught actually works
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2023, 11:49:55 PM »

This actually brings up one of the long-standing "problems" with the Onslaught: it's supposed to be the biggest, baddest ballistic ship in the game but its main battery are two energy weapons...
That problem has been solved now, say hello to the Invictus  :P
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Doctorhealsgood

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Re: "Energy" Onslaught actually works
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2023, 01:32:23 AM »

This actually brings up one of the long-standing "problems" with the Onslaught: it's supposed to be the biggest, baddest ballistic ship in the game but its main battery are two energy weapons...
To be fair they are very cool energy weapons that the ship is built around.
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BCS

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Re: "Energy" Onslaught actually works
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2023, 02:31:08 AM »

Well I'm not saying to remove them, but they could simply be recategorized as ballistics. Mjolnir is already in the game so it wouldn't even be too out of place.
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Grievous69

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Re: "Energy" Onslaught actually works
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2023, 02:35:21 AM »

But then they'd also be buffed by Ballistic Mastery which will make Onslaught even stronger. This is obviously intentional. I don't even see it as being out of place, it's in the same realm as the Paragon being able to fit 2 ballistic guns.
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FooF

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Re: "Energy" Onslaught actually works
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2023, 06:01:00 AM »

Shhh… :whisper: TPCs are the best energy weapons in the game. Also, ssshhhhh… They work better when they’re individually on their own weapon group and you use them sequentially.

To contribute, I’m ok with them being Energy and never thought to try to use EWM on them.
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Igncom1

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Re: "Energy" Onslaught actually works
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2023, 07:44:27 AM »

The TPC's basically ensure that you don't really need HE on them if you don't want to put it on there, they might not be the best anti-armour, but with a support missile or two they can take down enemy battleships with nothing but a massed kinetic arsenal and the TPCs.

Which is really nice against high shield foes like the Remnants or big spacestations with bomber support. (Outsourcing your HE can be really nice, sometimes I'll have supportive Sunders just for that purpose.)
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BCS

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Re: "Energy" Onslaught actually works
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2023, 08:34:07 AM »

But then they'd also be buffed by Ballistic Mastery which will make Onslaught even stronger.

You're making it sound as if Onslaught is already strong. At least in AI hands it certainly isn't.
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Grievous69

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Re: "Energy" Onslaught actually works
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2023, 08:39:31 AM »

But then they'd also be buffed by Ballistic Mastery which will make Onslaught even stronger.

You're making it sound as if Onslaught is already strong. At least in AI hands it certainly isn't.
Which capital is strong in AI hands? Except Radiant of course. All of them are either meh or undewhelming when you compare them to the player's potential. I call Onslaught strong because it is objectively a good ship per DP. I'd say only the Radiant comes out on top based on effectiveness. If your Onslaught is derping a lot it's likely a build or officer issue.
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BCS

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Re: "Energy" Onslaught actually works
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2023, 10:37:38 AM »

Which capital is strong in AI hands? Except Radiant of course. All of them are either meh or undewhelming when you compare them to the player's potential.

Then don't compare them to a ship in player's hands, compare them to another AI piloted ship.

AI doesn't like hardpoints because it switches targets way too often and Onslaught has maneouverability of a space staion. Conquest doesn't have this problem at all, Paragon avoids the problem by having 2500+ range with beams, Radiant has no problems with mobility in general and with an Alpha core you can just get Helmsmanship and/or Impact Mitigation and turn it into a cruiser anyway. So to answer your question: almost every other capital ship will be better than Onslaught in AI hands.
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Grievous69

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Re: "Energy" Onslaught actually works
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2023, 10:52:14 AM »

Another poster already answered your complaint about it, separate the TPCs in weapon groups.
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: "Energy" Onslaught actually works
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2023, 12:45:05 PM »

Given the range limited nature of EWM, assuming a player piloted energy Onslaught, I wonder if swapping the ITU out for something else would be worth while, like IPDAI (and maybe swap a skill for ePD?) or perhaps Auxilliary Thrusters.

In regards to Onslaught effectiveness and bringing weapons to bear, I find that Onslaughts essentially define the line of fighting, so they shouldn't need to turn all that much, especially against an opposing capital or cruiser line.  When properly supported by frigates/destroyers they shouldn't need to change their attention to flankers, and in any case still have a high amount of firepower in their forward 240 degrees (can bring to bear at a minimum 1 large slot and 3 medium slots in that 240 degrees).

Also, as charge weapons, Thermal Pulse Cannons have their DPS much less affected by time off target than others, so being in a hardpoint isn't as disadvantageous as for other weapons.  A 20 Charge capacity (and 1 charge gained per second) at 5 shots per seconds runs dry in 5 seconds.  It takes 20 seconds to fully charge after that, so they really only need to be on target for about 20% of the time to get a full DPS benefit.  Also, depending on skills, can reach out to 1,750 range units (1000 * (1 + 0.6 + 0.15)), and are well placed at the very front of the ship.  They certainly out range hard-flux Radiants.  Not sure how Paragon beams hit 2500+.  I thought vanilla max beam range on a Paragon was 1000 * (1 + 1 + 0.15) + 200 = 2350.  In any case, TPCs also have a solidly long range with ITU.

Admittedly, I do tend to run Elite Impact Mitigation and throw on Auxillary Thrusters on Onslaughts when running them in the campaign to improve their turning ability.

To be honest, in a 6 vs 6 AI controlled Conquest vs Onslaught matchup, I'd put my money on the Onslaughts.  Actually...

Just tested a simple AI battles (the PVP mission mod) with 6 conquest_Elite versus 6 onslaught_Elite variants, twice.  The Onslaughts came out on top with only 2 ships lost, and then only 1 ship lost.  Seems like the AI handles them just fine when compared to Conquests at least. Sure they're clumsy at moving around but they're just that strong.  Also I have to mention, it is hilarious when an Onslaught clips a dead ship while burn driving, flames out at full speed, spins around slowly while firing the entire time at an enemy Conquest, flies through the Conquest line and ends up in a perfect flanking position on the other side...  Anyways, one could obviously tune up the ships with much better tuned player designed setups, but at first blush there doesn't seem to be any issues with the AI handling.

Anyways, I'm open to fleet comparison suggestions or some objective comparisons of capital performance under AI control, but it's my experience in the latest release Onslaughts are quite good for the DP, both in human hands, and relatively in AI hands, when combined with skills.
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BigBrainEnergy

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Re: "Energy" Onslaught actually works
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2023, 12:54:11 PM »

Given the range limited nature of EWM, assuming a player piloted energy Onslaught, I wonder if swapping the ITU out for something else would be worth while, like IPDAI (and maybe swap a skill for ePD?) or perhaps Auxilliary Thrusters.

I think the ability to hit targets at long range is still worth more than anything else you can get for 25 op. You can't charge in or run down every opponent every time. Although maybe you could pull off itu and unstable injectors, getting 36% range and 40% top speed.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2023, 03:36:50 PM by BigBrainEnergy »
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