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Author Topic: Give the new s-mod bonuses/penalties to ships that come with built-in hullmods  (Read 1633 times)

SonnaBanana

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Just saw the tweet, and again I want to reiterate that giving massive bonuses to S-modded logistics hullmods is a straight-up buff because putting them on logistics ships is a no-brainer with no downside, especially since these ships are rarely replaced or lost. Story points are practically infinite so the player WILL get these hullmods built-in eventually, it's not a case of "if" but "when".

It's definitely a buff. I mean, it's a buff even if the bonuses were tiny :) I think it might also make for some interesting decisions earlier, give you other options when you're far out from core and need more capacity after a successful salvage operation, etc. And I'm not sure that endgame fleets requiring less "stat stick" ships is a bad thing. (If, as was talked about in some other threads, there are mechanical changes that make logistics ships show up on the battlefield more often, that might change.) That said, going to keep an eye on it in playtesting and see how it feels; might tone it down some, might not!
Shameless self-promotion: https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=19714
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FooF

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Hmm, that makes a lot of sense. On the other hand, IIRC it being somewhat unwieldy is the original design intent, to keep burn levels more meaningful and not something that can just be worked around easily for a few OP.

I agree that Burn speeds shouldn’t be too malleable but current ADF is kind of weird as-is. In general, only 1 burn speed separates the hull class sizes but ADF gives a bonus that shoots the ship 2 class sizes smaller. Cruisers have Frigate speed? Capitals move like Destroyers? It seems that if Burn speed was modifiable, it would be more graduated and you wouldn’t see such huge gains. It should take some serious engineering to make a big ship move 2+ Burn faster.

There’s also other ways to increase burn speed now that didn’t exist when ADF first came out. Logistic ships have Industry skills that increase it by 1 without OP so the +2 is less necessary on large haulers.

I guess the primary use-case, for me, is to put it on the one ship that slows my fleet down. I wouldn’t slap it on everything because I’d lose too much combat power. But that first Cruiser or first Capital that is the weight that slows the fleet down? I’d put ADF on temporarily until I get a second at that speed. Maybe put a “can only have X number ships with ADF in the fleet” type system?
« Last Edit: February 17, 2023, 05:56:36 AM by FooF »
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SCC

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I don't really care if logistic s-mod bonuses are strong, because logistics aren't something I ever have issues with. Then again, combat encounters are typically free supplies and fuel to me.
But that first Cruiser or first Capital that is the weight that slows the fleet down? I’d put ADF on temporarily until I get a second at that speed. Maybe put a “can only have X number ships with ADF in the fleet” type system?
Do people even use ADF in any other way? Find one capital ship or cruiser early on and it's worth it with ADF for the performance. Find more of them, and you either cannot integrate this many into your fleet and end up stashing some of them until later, or you can integrate them and you are more likely to simply drop to a lower burn level.

Doctorhealsgood

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Huh the thread moved really fast out of the sudden
Yeah, I like this idea, too - thank you for the suggestion. Did that; calling it "enhanced" in-game and using the same UI. This feels a lot better.
Glad to be of help!
The derelict drone one is pretty neat! Maybe a little extreme for vanilla, but still neat.
I agree is a bit extreme but as a fan of the explorarium ships i would not complain at all if something like that it were to happen (To clear it up i know it will not happen just wanted to mention i liked the ships)
On a different note, Solar Shielding kind of sucks for its main purpose because unless you put it on all of your ships you always risk that one ship without it getting hit and then rest of the fleet has to wait until it gets the CR back. So how about making built-in Solar Shielding double as a "lightining rod", i.e. ships with built-in Solar Shielding are MORE likely to get hit in storms? Then if you have, say, 3/5/whatever Solar Shielded ships in fleet the probability of hitting a ship without it goes down to 0.
Yeah solar shielding can feel a bit binary if you want to use it to shield against storms. It makes sense that viable storm surfing should be a fleet wide expenditure but sometimes there just is that one ship you just cannot manage to fit it in or you just salvaged... That then pretty much explodes and it is a pain. Wish there was a way to at the very least fudge the dice in some way so to speak.
Just saw the tweet, and again I want to reiterate that giving massive bonuses to S-modded logistics hullmods is a straight-up buff because putting them on logistics ships is a no-brainer with no downside, especially since these ships are rarely replaced or lost. Story points are practically infinite so the player WILL get these hullmods built-in eventually, it's not a case of "if" but "when".

It's definitely a buff. I mean, it's a buff even if the bonuses were tiny :) I think it might also make for some interesting decisions earlier, give you other options when you're far out from core and need more capacity after a successful salvage operation, etc. And I'm not sure that endgame fleets requiring less "stat stick" ships is a bad thing. (If, as was talked about in some other threads, there are mechanical changes that make logistics ships show up on the battlefield more often, that might change.) That said, going to keep an eye on it in playtesting and see how it feels; might tone it down some, might not!
Shameless self-promotion: https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=19714
Would be fun if civvie/logistic ships had some incentives to field them by being able to support the rest of the fleet in some way. But considering they would still eat your DP it might be hard to make it worth it.
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WhisperDSP

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Yeah solar shielding can feel a bit binary if you want to use it to shield against storms. It makes sense that viable storm surfing should be a fleet wide expenditure but sometimes there just is that one ship you just cannot manage to fit it in or you just salvaged... That then pretty much explodes and it is a pain. Wish there was a way to at the very least fudge the dice in some way so to speak.

Do mothballed ships get hit by solar storms?

Wyvern

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On a different note, Solar Shielding kind of sucks for its main purpose because unless you put it on all of your ships you always risk that one ship without it getting hit and then rest of the fleet has to wait until it gets the CR back. So how about making built-in Solar Shielding double as a "lightining rod", i.e. ships with built-in Solar Shielding are MORE likely to get hit in storms? Then if you have, say, 3/5/whatever Solar Shielded ships in fleet the probability of hitting a ship without it goes down to 0.

Interesting idea! Seems like it runs the risk of trivializing storms for a fairly low investment, though, hmm.
Having thought about this for a while longer, I like the idea, but think that implementing this as a lightning-rod effect is not ideal. I haven't been able to come up with a lightning-rod implementation that doesn't have at least one of the three following flaws: trivializing storms for a low investment, or it makes it 'optimal' to play around with what hullmods are installed on what ships every time your fleet composition changes in order to keep 100% protection with the lowest possible investment, or it still leaves a small chance of targeting non-solar-shielding ships and we're back to the original problem just with lower probabilities.

Instead, I'd suggest positing solar shielding as an active defensive field, where instead of shielding the specific ship it's installed on, it instead provides a portion of its effect to the fleet as a whole. Get the scaling right, and you'd get the same level of protection for a fleet with every ship having solar shielding installed, but you'd also get a fleet-wide half-effect protection if half the fleet (by DP, probably?) has solar shielding, and half the fleet doesn't.
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Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

Doctorhealsgood

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Yeah solar shielding can feel a bit binary if you want to use it to shield against storms. It makes sense that viable storm surfing should be a fleet wide expenditure but sometimes there just is that one ship you just cannot manage to fit it in or you just salvaged... That then pretty much explodes and it is a pain. Wish there was a way to at the very least fudge the dice in some way so to speak.

Do mothballed ships get hit by solar storms?
I might be misremembering but i think it happened to me a couple of times.
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Alex

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Instead, I'd suggest positing solar shielding as an active defensive field, where instead of shielding the specific ship it's installed on, it instead provides a portion of its effect to the fleet as a whole. Get the scaling right, and you'd get the same level of protection for a fleet with every ship having solar shielding installed, but you'd also get a fleet-wide half-effect protection if half the fleet (by DP, probably?) has solar shielding, and half the fleet doesn't.

Ah, so the same sort of thing Phase Field does! Hmm. Not sure if I want to do this (in significant part just due to taking the time for a mini-revamp like that right now seeming dubious), but it's a super interesting idea, and I'll keep it in mind!
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Alex

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Do mothballed ships get hit by solar storms?

(I *think* it only happens if all of the ships have very low CR and even then it's extra unlikely; not 100% sure though.)
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Wyvern

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Instead, I'd suggest positing solar shielding as an active defensive field, where instead of shielding the specific ship it's installed on, it instead provides a portion of its effect to the fleet as a whole. Get the scaling right, and you'd get the same level of protection for a fleet with every ship having solar shielding installed, but you'd also get a fleet-wide half-effect protection if half the fleet (by DP, probably?) has solar shielding, and half the fleet doesn't.

Ah, so the same sort of thing Phase Field does! Hmm. Not sure if I want to do this (in significant part just due to taking the time for a mini-revamp like that right now seeming dubious), but it's a super interesting idea, and I'll keep it in mind!
Makes sense! I like the idea, sure, but I'd rather not have it at the cost of delaying the next starsector version. It's something I could mod in if I decided I really needed it, anyway.
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Serenitis

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Having thought about this for a while longer, I like the idea, but think that implementing this as a lightning-rod effect is not ideal.
One of the big ship packs from years back had "Logistics" ships that ate up any CR hits from the rest of the fleet, and they were eventually dropped because they just didn't add anything but incentives for gamey behaviour.

If everyone is dead set on Solar Shielding being reworked, consider having it use a similar logic to tugs.
One equipped ship can give some protection to the entire fleet. More ships equals more protection.
It's a dock mod, so it's competing for p. limited space even on civilian ships.
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Candesce

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If everyone is dead set on Solar Shielding being reworked, consider having it use a similar logic to tugs.
One equipped ship can give some protection to the entire fleet. More ships equals more protection.
Given that storm strikes already scale based on the size of your fleet, the simplest option might just be for Solar Shielding ships to not count for strike scaling.
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Doctorhealsgood

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Why not make some sort of fancy sindrian ship that it is like the tug but instead of making you faster it gives fleet-wide shielding effects against the stuff solar shielding already does? They made the solar shielding tech out of necessity so it would be easy to assume they could go and find new ways to not get cooked to death by their sun. Something something drive field isolation... field. It doesn't have to have the same potency as solar shielding does but if you feel fancy you could let them stack together for it to work even better.
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Midnight Kitsune

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One of the big ship packs from years back had "Logistics" ships that ate up any CR hits from the rest of the fleet, and they were eventually dropped because they just didn't add anything but incentives for gamey behaviour.
SS+ logistic ships! Man I miss those days!

If everyone is dead set on Solar Shielding being reworked, consider having it use a similar logic to tugs.
One equipped ship can give some protection to the entire fleet. More ships equals more protection.
Given that storm strikes already scale based on the size of your fleet, the simplest option might just be for Solar Shielding ships to not count for strike scaling.
I feel like this would be a good design for it
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Siffrin

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It was subjectively frustrating when using Better Deserved S-Mods mod when the ships with built-in mods did not get s-mod bonuses.
You can toggle it in the settings.json to allow built-in hullmods to receive bonuses.
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