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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Give the new s-mod bonuses/penalties to ships that come with built-in hullmods  (Read 2788 times)

Alex

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Would that apply to built-ins that get penalties when s-modded?  If so, might want to block s-mods to built-ins if doing so would add a penalty and make it worse.

Those just can't be "enhanced"; there's no penalty when they're built in.

Would you give ships with the expensive built in hullmods the penalty and then “enhance” them to remove it?

Hmm - I suppose that's a possibility! Though it's simpler UI-wise that way, and I also like keeping existing ships with built-ins as is, not modifying them with a broad brush.

Then again, what would be a reasonable combat effect for s-modded surveying equipment? How would that help you fight? I'm not sure. An ability to scan enemy vessels for weak points, granting a chance of a critical hit that does bonus damage? A wing of makeshift survey drones, or perhaps a single 'free' explorarium frigate that just spawns into battle as a non-commandable ally with an escort order set on the ship with s-modded survey equipment? Maybe surveying equipment s-modded lets you capture nodes more quickly (hm, that'd be an interesting one, more valuable on frigates than on larger ships...)

I'm not sure any of those are really good ideas, but they're what I can think of offhand.

The derelict drone one is pretty neat! Maybe a little extreme for vanilla, but still neat.

But then what would they do if installed on non-combat ships? And just in general for s-mods bonuses,  want to keep those in line with the idea that "if you want the bonus, chances are very very high that you will also benefit from the base hullmod effect". Otherwise you get stuff like installing and building in hullmods *just* for their s-mod bonus, and that seems backwards to me.
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Wyvern

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The derelict drone one is pretty neat! Maybe a little extreme for vanilla, but still neat.
Thanks!

But then what would they do if installed on non-combat ships?
Same thing they do now: allow you to install additional logistics mods above the normal limits.

And just in general for s-mods bonuses,  want to keep those in line with the idea that "if you want the bonus, chances are very very high that you will also benefit from the base hullmod effect". Otherwise you get stuff like installing and building in hullmods *just* for their s-mod bonus, and that seems backwards to me.
That's a fair point. My general thought on that topic is that combat bonuses from logistics mods should be tuned to be relatively weak, so that if your primary goal is combat ability, you'd almost always be better off with s-modding a non-logistics mod.

...Even with that, though, I could see niche cases, like someone deciding that their Tempest really needs s-modded Augmented Drive Field for an extra +10 to the zero flux boost for point-capping. (Do I think that would be a good investment? No, I don't. Would someone do it anyway? Yeah, probably. Also note that the listed effect here is an idea of what I think s-modding augmented drive field might do; I don't know what the current bonus is set as.)
« Last Edit: February 16, 2023, 04:39:59 PM by Wyvern »
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Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

Alex

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Thinking about this a bit more - a logistics hullmod on a combat ship is a sacrifice in combat power anyway, right? It feels like increasing/augmenting its bonus may be a more fun direction to go in than reducing the amount of sacrifice.

(Augmented Drive Field gives an extra +1 to max burn for its s-mod bonus, right now.)
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Wyvern

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Thinking about this a bit more - a logistics hullmod on a combat ship is a sacrifice in combat power anyway, right?
Sometimes! There are logistics-tagged mods that I take primarily for their combat benefit, with the logistical bonus being a nice extra.

The three that I like having on my combat ships are:
  • Solar Shielding: If I install this at all, it's pretty much exclusively for the combat benefit; I don't find the logistical side of it to be very useful unless I've decided to put it on every ship in my fleet.
  • Insulated Engines: There are a number of ships that are notably vulnerable to salamanders. Sometimes you can close that up via extended shields, but sometimes you can't, and insulated engines is cheaper anyway and gives that little bit of extra hull, too.
  • Efficiency Overhaul: Mostly useful on larger ships that have particularly slow CR recovery, this one's a bit more arguable, since it only provides combat benefits if you're fighting several battles in relatively rapid sequence. So... I can't really argue that I take this one primarily for the combat benefits, but they're certainly a nice bonus already.
It feels like increasing/augmenting its bonus may be a more fun direction to go in than reducing the amount of sacrifice.
This is a fair point, though.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2023, 05:02:43 PM by Wyvern »
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Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

Alex

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Ah, that makes sense! In my head, Solar Shielding and Insulated Engines were not tagged as "Logistics" even though in reality they are :)
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Megas

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    • Efficiency Overhaul: Mostly useful on larger ships that have particularly slow CR recovery, this one's a bit more arguable, since it only provides combat benefits if you're fighting several battles in relatively rapid sequence. So... I can't really argue that I take this one primarily for the combat benefits, but they're certainly a nice bonus already.
    There are two hangar queens:  Radiant with Alpha core and no more than 50% max CR (in the yellow after one fight), and Ziggurat (-50% CR per deployment, and only 4.5% CR recovered per day with EO.  If Z e-dived, then it pays double deployment and loses all CR).

    Sometimes, being able to fight a second round without imploding would be nice, especially if the hangar queen is the backbone of the fleet.  I consider Efficiency Overhaul vital for those two ships.

    • Solar Shielding: If I install this at all, it's pretty much exclusively for the combat benefit; I don't find the logistical side of it to be very useful unless I've decided to put it on every ship in my fleet.
    Me too.  It is for anti-Ordos, and Ordos, being significantly stronger than any human faction, is the only recurring enemy that seems to matter late in the game.
    « Last Edit: February 16, 2023, 05:51:52 PM by Megas »
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    SonnaBanana

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    Will completely fixed hullmods like Ground Support Package, Vast Hangar and Salvage Gantry be s-moddable?
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    I'm not going to check but you should feel bad :( - Alex

    FooF

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    (Augmented Drive Field gives an extra +1 to max burn for its s-mod bonus, right now.)

    Not to hijack but I would...kill...for an Augmented Drive Field that was +1 Burn but half the OP cost and the S-modded version was +2 Burn speed. Most of the time, I only need +1 Burn to get my one slow-poke Cruiser to hang with Destroyers or a Battlecruiser to not slow the whole fleet down. Right now, ADF is sort of an all-or-none venture with a huge opportunity/combat cost.
    « Last Edit: February 16, 2023, 05:52:21 PM by FooF »
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    Alex

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    Will completely fixed hullmods like Ground Support Package, Vast Hangar and Salvage Gantry be s-moddable?

    Nope - this is only for regular hullmods that already have an s-mod bonus and happen to be built into the hull. Modding wise, though, it's entirely possible to add s-mod effect to hullmods like the ones you've listed, though.

    Not to hijack but I would...kill...for an Augmented Drive Field that was +1 Burn but half the OP cost and the S-modded version was +2 Burn speed. Most of the time, I only need +1 Burn to get my one slow-poke Cruiser to hang with Destroyers or a Battlecruiser to not slow the whole fleet down. Right now, ADF is sort of an all-or-none venture with a huge opportunity/combat cost.

    Hmm, that makes a lot of sense. On the other hand, IIRC it being somewhat unwieldy is the original design intent, to keep burn levels more meaningful and not something that can just be worked around easily for a few OP.
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    BaBosa

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    I always thought that a +1 burn drive would be good but make it only 25% cheaper. So it’s less burn/OP but at least you’re not wasting. Though it should have a different s-mod effect to augmented field drive like maybe 25% less fuel.

    I also like the idea of giving true logistics hullmods logistic s-mod bonuses. Solar shielding and insulated engines should get combat bonuses and possibly buff their non combat effects at the same time by a bit.

    Also can I ask what efficiency overhauls s-mod bonus is? I use it on every ship for the quicker recovery and I’m hoping that is enhanced.
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    Alex

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    Also can I ask what efficiency overhauls s-mod bonus is? I use it on every ship for the quicker recovery and I’m hoping that is enhanced.

    It increases the "efficiency" portion, not the recovery one. IIRC 10% more, from 20% to 30%. Though, honestly, increasing the recovery might be more interesting; let me make a note to think about that.
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    BCS

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    Just saw the tweet, and again I want to reiterate that giving massive bonuses to S-modded logistics hullmods is a straight-up buff because putting them on logistics ships is a no-brainer with no downside, especially since these ships are rarely replaced or lost. Story points are practically infinite so the player WILL get these hullmods built-in eventually, it's not a case of "if" but "when".

    On a different note, Solar Shielding kind of sucks for its main purpose because unless you put it on all of your ships you always risk that one ship without it getting hit and then rest of the fleet has to wait until it gets the CR back. So how about making built-in Solar Shielding double as a "lightining rod", i.e. ships with built-in Solar Shielding are MORE likely to get hit in storms? Then if you have, say, 3/5/whatever Solar Shielded ships in fleet the probability of hitting a ship without it goes down to 0.
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    Alex

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    Just saw the tweet, and again I want to reiterate that giving massive bonuses to S-modded logistics hullmods is a straight-up buff because putting them on logistics ships is a no-brainer with no downside, especially since these ships are rarely replaced or lost. Story points are practically infinite so the player WILL get these hullmods built-in eventually, it's not a case of "if" but "when".

    It's definitely a buff. I mean, it's a buff even if the bonuses were tiny :) I think it might also make for some interesting decisions earlier, give you other options when you're far out from core and need more capacity after a successful salvage operation, etc. And I'm not sure that endgame fleets requiring less "stat stick" ships is a bad thing. (If, as was talked about in some other threads, there are mechanical changes that make logistics ships show up on the battlefield more often, that might change.) That said, going to keep an eye on it in playtesting and see how it feels; might tone it down some, might not!


    On a different note, Solar Shielding kind of sucks for its main purpose because unless you put it on all of your ships you always risk that one ship without it getting hit and then rest of the fleet has to wait until it gets the CR back. So how about making built-in Solar Shielding double as a "lightining rod", i.e. ships with built-in Solar Shielding are MORE likely to get hit in storms? Then if you have, say, 3/5/whatever Solar Shielded ships in fleet the probability of hitting a ship without it goes down to 0.

    Interesting idea! Seems like it runs the risk of trivializing storms for a fairly low investment, though, hmm.


    ... especially since these ships are rarely replaced or lost. ...

    (Kind of unrelated, but seemed like a good opportunity to mention that you get bonus XP equivalent to what was spent on building hullmods in when you scuttle a ship or lose it in combat.)
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    SafariJohn

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    (Augmented Drive Field gives an extra +1 to max burn for its s-mod bonus, right now.)

    TBH I am surprised ADF has an s-mod bonus at all. Does it still cost 8-16-24-40 OP?
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    BigBrainEnergy

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    TBH I am surprised ADF has an s-mod bonus at all. Does it still cost 8-16-24-40 OP?

    Yes, all logistics hullmods are getting bonuses regardless of op cost.
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    TL;DR deez nuts
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