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Author Topic: Help designing a "stealth" fleet  (Read 2561 times)

BCS

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Re: Help designing a "stealth" fleet
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2023, 09:27:13 PM »

Realistic space combat would be extremely boring and in all likelyhood not involve spaceships at all.

Stepping away from phase ships and back to the OPs original question, Condor is fairly weird. Accellerated missile racks on something that has only a single missile-mount is somewhat wasteful.

Condor is a carrier, the AMR is supposed to be just a cherry on top.
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WhisperDSP

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Re: Help designing a "stealth" fleet
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2023, 03:16:53 AM »

Stepping away from phase ships and back to the OPs original question, Condor is fairly weird. Accellerated missile racks on something that has only a single missile-mount is somewhat wasteful.

Condor is a carrier, the AMR is supposed to be just a cherry on top.

After some testing, I would not call the AMR any sort of cherry whatsoever. "Rotten Distraction"? Sounds like a bad hair-rock band or a ship's name. "Hogan's Goat"? "Left-Hand Thread"?

Said testing involved simulating 5x Condors vs 1x Onslaught - that's my general go-to testing, if the ships manage a 5-on-1 with a tough opponent (0-1 losses) it is worth looking further. Bonus if throwing them at the opponent is successful with Full Assault and otherwise hands-off.

NOTE: No officers were used, mine are not spec'd for fighter stuff. (Nor is my character.)

There were a few issues:

* The Condors stay so far back from the action that it's rather difficult to see what's happening at the target.
* The missiles almost never fired - I think due to the above, they would have been essentially ineffective at the long range.

After some mix-and-matching I eventually dumped the missiles entirely (beyond double-Squall they're not something I bother messing with). In my mind it was far more worthwhile to have better fighters. The basic loadout became:

Expanded Deck Crew
Recovery Shuttles
2x Light Autocannon
3x Condor's having double Piranha, 2x Condors having double Thunder or double Claw

==============================

I tried Thunder/Claw with missiles - horrible, also pointless to use Salamander POD because the idea was that the Thunder/Claw EMPs the target to helplessness. Other missiles would not fire very often, if at all.

I made the mistake of trying the Warthog/Claw with Swarmer SRM. Hahahah! The Onslaught wiped the floor with them.

Piranha/Claw - worked, took over 5 minutes, no losses.

Cobra/Claw - worked, took about 4 minutes, no losses.

(For the above two, I think that having the two sets of fighters attacking/retreating at the same time helped with survivability. Plus the Claws being wiped out acted as cover, especially for the Cobra.)

Longbow/Claw - omigahd that was orful. /facepalm

2x Condors with 2x Claws, 3x Condors with 2x Piranhas - about 5 minutes, no losses.

2x Condors with 2x Thunders, 3x Condors with 2x Piranhas - about 4 minutes, 1 loss.

==============================

Basically fairly ho-hum, not wonderfully effective. Probably more use as the second-tier back-end ships, doesn't seem worthwhile to throw missiles on the Condor at all though.

Am interested in you-all's thoughts about what would work better. I've no real experience with fighters/missiles.

BCS

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Re: Help designing a "stealth" fleet
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2023, 04:24:19 AM »

Carriers have problems with firing missiles, I've seen it on Drovers.

But the missiles you're supposed to put on Condors are either Pilums or Salamanders. Since they have infinite ammunition and benefit the most from AMR. And they're cheap.
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WhisperDSP

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Re: Help designing a "stealth" fleet
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2023, 09:15:01 AM »

Wrong missile, eh. Thanks, I’ll give it a shot later with Pilums.

CapnHector

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Re: Help designing a "stealth" fleet
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2023, 09:20:51 AM »

Fun design challenge. The best I could do was 02:16 with 4 unofficered Condors under AI control and no orders (so the same DP as the Onslaught) and no personal carrier skills. The build was Salamander MRM pod, Cobra Wing, Broadsword Wing, 1 Light Mortar into the front small ballistic mount to encourage correct AI behavior, ECCM Package and the rest into caps.



I think the Salamanders are extremely important for this to work, since they flameout the Onslaught reliably which causes it to no longer be a threat to your Condors and also what happened here for example is that it tried to burn drive away, but then was stuck in place with its rear toward the Condors when a swarm of Salamanders caught up to it.
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WhisperDSP

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Re: Help designing a "stealth" fleet
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2023, 11:42:57 AM »

I only saw 1 of the condors shooting the missiles. Odd.

At least I could see what was going on.

CapnHector

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Re: Help designing a "stealth" fleet
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2023, 09:27:07 PM »

While it is a waste of limited OP you should give it at least 1 non-PD small ballistic (so, light mortar to waste the least OP) to make the AI actually close in to the enemy so it is in range of using its missiles. Also while the Onslaught design challenge is fun, this ship seems like it would be terrible in real combat. It is fragile as an eggshell and does barely any damage (try the same thing with 40 dp worth of phase frigates with AMBs, say).

If you like memes and S-mod in EMR then you could give it Safety Overrides, 1x Typhoon Reaper, 1x Light Mortar, 1x Talon and 1x Mining Pods. I tried that too without EMR and it seems promising for reaching a faster time to kill but the non-EMR version runs out of missiles. (Do not use a SO Condor in real combat)
« Last Edit: February 11, 2023, 09:31:45 PM by CapnHector »
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WhisperDSP

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Re: Help designing a "stealth" fleet
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2023, 04:05:38 AM »

While it is a waste of limited OP you should give it at least 1 non-PD small ballistic (so, light mortar to waste the least OP) to make the AI actually close in to the enemy so it is in range of using its missiles.

I did that. I am unsure of why only one of the Condors would fire. /puzzled

itBeABruhMoment

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Re: Help designing a "stealth" fleet
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2023, 10:49:19 AM »

Stealth isn't even very useful most of the time. You can get into most locations of interest with your transponder off by getting a burn 20 fleet, flashing your transponder on and off to bait patrols in the area, herding them to the edge of the system, transverse jumping to hyperspace, and quickly transverse jumping through the gravity well nearest to your destination. Also even with 0 sensor profile other fleets can still detect you from quite far.
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kanliot

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Re: Help designing a "stealth" fleet
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2023, 11:38:02 AM »

To OP: would a fleet of manticores be ok?   They have 2 medium missile slots, which means a whole lot of "harpoon MRM pod" weapons which can be very painful when going against them.

:)

and "WEL-come back to starsector"
« Last Edit: February 15, 2023, 11:39:35 AM by kanliot »
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Candesce

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Re: Help designing a "stealth" fleet
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2023, 05:07:58 PM »

Also even with 0 sensor profile other fleets can still detect you from quite far.
Sensor profile is summed with the searching fleet's sensor strength to determine how far away they can see you from, yeah.

That said, I'm pretty sure the Sensors skill / Phase Ship bonus / Running Dark all apply their effects after the summation. And there are a lot of systems you can get real close in on without flashing bait to distract the patrols, because the asteroid and dust fields definitely apply after the summation, and can get right up on top of your destination often enough. I've actually done spy sat drops with my transponder on using those.
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Daynen

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Re: Help designing a "stealth" fleet
« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2023, 10:08:21 AM »

I mean, if you want all phase ships that can assassinate stuff, why not just go the Invader zim route?  "Doomy doom doom dee-doom doom doom doomy doom..."

I mean, there is only SO MUCH point defense on those enemy fleets.  Sooner or later, you're GOING to drop enough mines to crack them.  If they're killing your mines...add more Doom.

Bonus points for singing along as you do it.
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WhisperDSP

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Re: Help designing a "stealth" fleet
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2023, 03:58:49 PM »

I have been mulling this over (life has been extremely busy the last couple weeks) and doing some searching. I ran across the following on Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/starsector/comments/l565c7/how_do_you_make_the_ai_use_missiles_properly/

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If you absolutely, positively want to brute force the AI into shooting missiles, I think you can group a PD weapon and the missiles into a single group set to linked autofire. I saw it in one of the fleet tournaments but haven't tried it myself.

Quote
This worked actually. I put a light mortar on the kite's ballistic slot and linked the missiles to it. They now fire sabots off cooldown as soon as they get close enough to the target. The Harpoon ships fire as soon as the ship is fluxed out as always. They're tearing the sim Onslaughts and Paragons apart without any help from me.

@FrancisJohn this reminds me of you linking Squall MLRS/Hurricane MIRV on the Conquest. Could it be adapted to what you’re looking for?

Here’s another post on missiles from Grievous69: https://www.reddit.com/r/starsector/comments/uoqitr/missile_weapon_tier_list/

I admit to not grokking missiles at all. Does anyone have other ways of forcing the AI to slam missiles out? Perhaps Monitor with short-range ballistic and missile, swarming the enemy up close?

If so, Francis might be able to get a fleet to appear-and-smash an opponent in short order like he wants.
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