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Author Topic: Autosave - It really is necessary  (Read 2496 times)

Mastnosis

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Autosave - It really is necessary
« on: February 08, 2023, 12:47:27 AM »

I'm going to make the argument again that the game should have some form of autosave. The dev seems to argue against implementing it because saving takes a long time. That only matters if it is mandatory. It doesn't even have to be the default, but people should have the option to enable it.

I believe there might be a mod that adds this functionality but I would argue that this is pretty core to any progression based game and needs to be in the base. Mod interaction is unpredictable, and the support for such an important feature should not be delegated to the community.

Some have flippantly told people to quick save religiously. Maybe that works for them, but as someone who has lost multiple hours of gameplay on multiple occasions because I haven't got into the habit yet, I want the ability to enable autosaves. I can hack the few seconds it takes and for those who won't they don't need to enable it. 5 seconds compounding into minutes over a long play session vs multiple hours lost seems like a good trade. And this argument is strengthened when it regards to new players who haven't gotten in the habit yet and are more likely to be put off the game entirely when they lose their first few gaming sessions.

As suggestions for implementation, at least 3-5 rotating autosave slots are best practices. As for when to autosave, I would argue either time based like every 6 months or a year, or event based like before combat. Before combat as compared to after combat would allow people to retry difficult battles. Most long time players seem to quick save before anyhow, why not make it automatic. Another option would be when jumping into and/or out of a system. You already have some transition animations taking up time and this time could be used to make the save without adding much extra time to the player.

If I had my way I would also have quick saves a separate entity from save saves. In fact this game does not have a "quick save" function. F5 saves and F9 loads. Regular saves are more like checkpointing and quick saves are for incremental saving. The game does seem to have a roundabout way of implementing checkpointing by doing a copy save, but that is not an industry norm.

I'm sure some players are going to argue that not having an autosave is part of the "experience." This is a single player game. You should be able to play it the way you like and I should be able to play it the way I prefer. This is not changing the core game mechanics, it is simply providing some automation to what many experienced players do already and relieving a pain point for those of us who don't.
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Nick9

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Re: Autosave - It really is necessary
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2023, 06:45:39 AM »

It doesn't even have to be the default

I hope so. Not here to disregard your suggestion (it's a QoL feature), just the fact that autosave could ruin my personal gameplay. By unexpected way, I mean, sometimes I need my save to be far away from where I'm now.

I believe there might be a mod that adds this functionality

And yes, there's a mod! And it's kinda predictable for now. https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=9748.0

at least 3-5 rotating autosave slots are best practices

But! What I agree with is that game probably needs more save slots. Even if it's too could potentially ruin my personal gameplay by casualing it =)
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FooF

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Re: Autosave - It really is necessary
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2023, 07:12:28 AM »

Here would be my use-case for Autosave: docking at a colonized spaceport. I might even limit that by excluding Pirate or Panther bases outside of the core worlds.

That’s about the only scenario where I would want it. If it were on entry to a system or every 5 minutes, etc., it might put me into a save state where I’m perpetually stuck in a no-win situation. If I’m not doing an iron man run, I don’t want this to be an outcome.

The best suggestion I’ve seen is a dialog prompt (that could be turned off) that says something “You haven’t saved in over X minutes. Quick save?” That way the player has a choice in the matter. You could even set the reminder time to about whatever you wanted.
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Megas

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Re: Autosave - It really is necessary
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2023, 07:31:03 AM »

Not a fan of auto-saving in general.  For games that have them on by default, I usually turn them off.  I prefer games (that do not try to stop save-scumming like those with permadeath) to save only when I tell them to, especially if saving takes more than a second.
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BaBosa

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Re: Autosave - It really is necessary
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2023, 10:58:25 AM »

I used to have the same opinion but I’ve gotten into the habit of quick saving lately and actually turned off the auto save mod except for the time since last save notifications.

An auto save option would help newer players though and those who haven’t gotten around to quick saving. I’m sure the auto save kidder would be happy to have their code used so it might not even take much effort.
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Mastnosis

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Re: Autosave - It really is necessary
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2023, 12:51:50 PM »

I hope so. Not here to disregard your suggestion (it's a QoL feature), just the fact that autosave could ruin my personal gameplay. By unexpected way, I mean, sometimes I need my save to be far away from where I'm now.

I think you are misunderstanding the purpose of the autosave. It should never "ruin" your experience. It's not meant to supplant saving altogether. You can and should have normal saves at regular intervals, usually created after key accomplishments. But a properly implemented autosave should allow for multiple time options for restoring your game so that you can go back a little or potentially a medium term. That is the reason for multiple autosaves. Long term rewind should be the purview of manual saves.
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Mastnosis

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Re: Autosave - It really is necessary
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2023, 01:07:23 PM »

The comments so far seem to be "I don't like it" and "I don't want it messing up my current save regimen." I'm not arguing for supplanting regular saves, nor for making it mandatory.

There could be a debate about making it default. If it is that contentious don't. I would argue that it makes more sense to enable it by default and those that really hate it can disable it. The reason for this is that it's better to have the safety net, especially for new players, than to wait for disaster and wish you had it.

Most strategy games I play/played have manual saves and autosaves. Realtime games usually have, in addition, quicksave. Each serves a purpose. This has been honed over decades of game development. Why would you not learn from your predecessors.

TLDR; this increases your options, not diminishes them.
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WhisperDSP

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Re: Autosave - It really is necessary
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2023, 01:13:32 PM »

Part of the problem with autosave is that each save appears to be in the one directory. Other games do this by each save-file having either an incremented number or a timestamp.

Essentially Alex would have to alter substantially the saving method: one directory per playthrough with multiple individual saves in the directory.

FooF

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Re: Autosave - It really is necessary
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2023, 02:05:19 PM »

I’m not against it, per se, but it would have to be implemented in such a way that is unobtrusive and doesn’t lead to catch-22 situations. Again, I’d rather be reminded via prompt than auto save inadvertently. Saving might only take a second on my rig but it takes 8 on someone else’s. That’s a big deal if it’s happening every few minutes.
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Nick9

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Re: Autosave - It really is necessary
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2023, 02:17:09 PM »

I’m not against it, per se, but it would have to be implemented in such a way that is unobtrusive and doesn’t lead to catch-22 situations. Again, I’d rather be reminded via prompt than auto save inadvertently. Saving might only take a second on my rig but it takes 8 on someone else’s. That’s a big deal if it’s happening every few minutes.

Usually when I save it's like 4-5 seconds and no prob... but sometimes weird thing does occure (memory leak?) and it goes for... 2-3 minutes. No kidding. Restart does help, but first I need to wait for it to save.
Also almost every time I load a save file (when already in game) I'm getting that message about "memory leak, please restart", but that's... not the topic of this thread. However it'd be cool to see this problem resolved first...
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Alex

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Re: Autosave - It really is necessary
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2023, 02:23:55 PM »

Usually when I save it's like 4-5 seconds and no prob... but sometimes weird thing does occure (memory leak?) and it goes for... 2-3 minutes. No kidding. Restart does help, but first I need to wait for it to save.
Also almost every time I load a save file (when already in game) I'm getting that message about "memory leak, please restart", but that's... not the topic of this thread. However it'd be cool to see this problem resolved first...

(Just FYI, if you're seeing this, it's very likely there is a memory leak caused by one of the mods. And the save takes longer because there's not enough memory to do it quickly. If you haven't increased your memory allocation, you might want to do that - it won't get rid of the message, but it should get rid of the slowdown, though that depends on what sort of memory leak it is.)

More on-topic, it's something I'd like to look at; the save system could use another look in terms of how it handles slots etc. Autosaves would not overwrite the current savefile; they'd be an extra thing, there in case something went wrong - but, even if it takes two seconds (which, for vanilla with an SSD, is roughly where it's at), that's still a lot of this kind of thing...
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Jackundor

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Re: Autosave - It really is necessary
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2023, 02:40:45 PM »

if an autosave system gets implemented i'd like something the autosave mod currently has, namely a setting where it doesn't actually autosave but reminds you periodically when you haven't saved.
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Megas

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Re: Autosave - It really is necessary
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2023, 03:42:46 PM »

I do not think I would want constant reminders if I do not save when the game thinks I should save.  I do not want the game to act like nagware.
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Grievous69

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Re: Autosave - It really is necessary
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2023, 11:58:57 PM »

if an autosave system gets implemented i'd like something the autosave mod currently has, namely a setting where it doesn't actually autosave but reminds you periodically when you haven't saved.
I do not think I would want constant reminders if I do not save when the game thinks I should save.  I do not want the game to act like nagware.
Bolded the important bit. There is zero reason why a setting wouldn't be implemented if it would help a great chunk of players.
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Please don't take me too seriously.

SCC

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Re: Autosave - It really is necessary
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2023, 01:52:50 AM »

I think the average player might be too annoyed by the lack of autosave to warrant an omission. You are doing this for the money in the end, Alex.
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