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Author Topic: How do you make the game's AI work?  (Read 4274 times)

Nesano

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Re: How do you make the game's AI work?
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2023, 05:07:20 PM »

Just thought of another AI question. Is there a way to put an engage marker on an enemy capital so one of your capitals will focus on it without your frigates seeing that marker and thinking "SIR, YES SIR! PROCEEDING TO JUMP OUT IN FRONT OF IT AND KILL MYSELF FOR NO TACTICAL REASON, SIR!"?

If you click on an enemy and give the engage order, you have no control over who gets assigned. That's why you should instead left click on your capital ship and then right click on the enemy you want to target.

That doesn't work because it puts an eliminate order on the enemy, which recreates the suicidal AI problem. Unless you meant put an Engage order on the enemy first, then order the capital to attack.

Also, seeing all those wolves in your fleet made me die a little on the inside. Of all the amazing high-tech frigates you could've chosen, you picked what is hands-down the worst one. Don't get me wrong, wolves are fine in the early game and can even pull off some fairly impressive feats in player hands, but by the late game anything else would be better. Even lashers are better at this stage, and they're cheaper!

They're leftovers from the early-mid game - I've been letting them go via attrition and replacing them with mostly Tempests. They're definitely not the worst high-tech frigate in the game and there are few things more destructive than a fleet of Wolf frigates with Reapers and Ion Pulsers. I wouldn't use them as general-purpose, late-game frigates, but as a wolf pack they make fireworks.
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Thaago

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Re: How do you make the game's AI work?
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2023, 06:48:15 PM »

In terms of ordering an engage on an enemy capital and not having your frigates go to attack it, you have a couple of options:
1) Attach your frigates to other ships via right click escort orders, if they are the type of frigate this makes sense for.
2) Assign your frigates to waypoints, again via right click - they will then skirmish out from that point, or be pushed back, using the normal "leash" mechanics. I often do this on the flanks and to the rear of the enemy blob, and make action groups so I don't have to keep selecting them. These points may need to get moved or cancelled depending on how the fight goes, because if the enemy goes far away or over-run the position then the frigates are going to be either not fighting or murdered, respectively.
3) Tell them to eliminate something else as a pack, preferably an isolated target that won't get help before your mobile but fragile ships get the job done.

Basically, if you don't want your ships to follow one of the general orders, then tell them to do something else. I vastly prefer ships attacking if I don't tell them otherwise rather than ships not attacking at all! (Then again I'm in a bit of a weird phase where I'm experimenting with using as many reckless officers as I can on non-SO ships: it works really well for a surprising number of them! Not Medusa's though, they get in over their head with the teleport.)
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BCS

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Re: How do you make the game's AI work?
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2023, 09:42:10 PM »

In terms of ordering an engage on an enemy capital and not having your frigates go to attack it, you have a couple of options:

4) Set them on Search & Destroy, which will exempt them from global orders.

But yeah, ships defaulting to Eliminate and not Engage on a right click is a problem. I too complained about it before! Kind of.
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Nesano

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Re: How do you make the game's AI work?
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2023, 04:35:14 AM »

In terms of ordering an engage on an enemy capital and not having your frigates go to attack it, you have a couple of options:

4) Set them on Search & Destroy, which will exempt them from global orders.


That does stop them from following engage/eliminate orders, but Search & Destroy tends to get frigates killed in and of itself.
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calantlar

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Re: How do you make the game's AI work?
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2023, 07:52:51 AM »

In terms of ordering an engage on an enemy capital and not having your frigates go to attack it, you have a couple of options:

4) Set them on Search & Destroy, which will exempt them from global orders.


That does stop them from following engage/eliminate orders, but Search & Destroy tends to get frigates killed in and of itself.

Frigates rarely do well in direct combat, usually they are relegated to escort duties, though some specific frigates (Tempest, Scarab, Wolf, Lasher, Brawler & all phase frigates) can do well, but must operate as a group with either the "Escort" or "Defend" commands set on one of them, or they (usually) get killed off while in Search & Destroy.

Additionally a lot of (almost all) of my frigate builds use SO, the notable exceptions that don't are Tempest (On some builds, most still run SO), Scarab (Same story here) & Omen (Never run these SO'd as they act as dedicated escort frigates), if you count the Brawler as a frigate (I would, it's priced the same supply wise) then there's only 1 Brawler build out of the 4 that I use that does not use SO's (though SO's from the (LP) variant though, so built in/free).

That said here's a few things to keep in mind when using frigates in general:

1. Choose ahead of time what your frigate hulls will do and build them accordingly, Escort frigates (generally) need Peak time & PD, Wolfpack frigates need DPS and ideally burst DPS with a priority on Kinetic Damage, so that even against ships that they cannot outright kill they can atleast convince to back off to dissipate flux. Mixed role frigates rarely do well or end up taking some sort of tradeoff.
2. Don't operate non-phase frigates alone, always send them in packs of 2 or ideally more say 3-4 as single frigates are far to likely to die without accomplishing much, alternatively you can pair them with a destroyer.
3. Avoid high kinetic alpha damage targets (Anything carrying a Sabot SRM, Heavy Needler or large quantities of MG's etc. etc.), unless you have built your frigates specifically built to counter those, or lack shields but not other defensive systems, such as Phase Cloak or Damper Field.
4. Don't overcommit to Expanded Missile Racks, there's several builds that don't need it, but as a rule of thumb, if you bring sabot and it's your primary or your only Kinetic damage weapon then always take EMR, otherwise, consider the pros & cons and don't default to it, that might lock you into less optimal builds on some hulls.

Additionally, accept some amount of losses within your frigate lineup, especially in dangerous fights, most frigate lineups cannot surive the later fights without atleast some losses.
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Nick9

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Re: How do you make the game's AI work?
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2023, 10:31:51 AM »

What's bugging me is that DEFEND order is really useless. Assigned to defend ships will stay afk behind and watch "defended" ship die no matter what... or maybe I just need "SUICIDE DEFEND" button and more reckless officers.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2023, 10:34:13 AM by Nick9 »
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Spacer Heater

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Re: How do you make the game's AI work?
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2023, 11:10:06 AM »

What's bugging me is that DEFEND order is really useless. Assigned to defend ships will stay afk behind and watch "defended" ship die no matter what... or maybe I just need "SUICIDE DEFEND" button and more reckless officers.
Funnily enough, I have the exact opposite problem. When I put a defend order on a ship, the ships assigned to """"defend""""  it abandon it and go off chasing frigates and getting scattered all over the map. It's especially annoying when my cruisers and capitals do this. I've just stopped using the command in general.

I've found that literally doing nothing on the fleet command screen and letting my ships do whatever they want has yielded the best results in terms of survivability and contribution to the fight overall. Sometimes they even perform me outperform damage-wise, and I think I'm at least decent at the game. I don't know if this says more about my ability to give orders to my fleet or the AI in this game.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2023, 11:13:54 AM by Spacer Heater »
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BigBrainEnergy

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Re: How do you make the game's AI work?
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2023, 11:38:05 AM »

The "defend" order doesn't literally make the AI defend whatever you put it on. There isn't really any order that does that. Orders like "defend" and "escort" seem to act more like "stay in this general area" and the difference is how long of a leash they get.

As a player, it intuitively makes sense that you would want your ships to move forward and defend your capital when it's in trouble, especially when you put defend or escort orders on it. But the AI doesn't really think like that. The ships make individual risk assessment based off nearby enemy ships/allied ships and their own flux level; they aren't able to look at an ally's flux bar and then decide to take greater personal risk to protect that ally. If the calculations tell it to back up and play it safe then it will, even if it means abandoning a slower ship to basically fight for itself.

There are ways to finesse the AI into doing what you want, but often times it's not at all obvious and it takes a lot of frustrating trial and error.
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Thaago

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Re: How do you make the game's AI work?
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2023, 12:01:00 PM »

What's bugging me is that DEFEND order is really useless. Assigned to defend ships will stay afk behind and watch "defended" ship die no matter what... or maybe I just need "SUICIDE DEFEND" button and more reckless officers.

I think it suffers mainly from lack of explanation, along with escort, because both are very useful, but only if you know what they do.

Defend would be better named "Rally" in my mind, because that is what it does: it makes a good number of ships use the spot/ship as the center of their movement area. Like normal, if your ships in that area are winning, they will push forward and attack. If they are losing, they will be pushed back. This means that the "defended" ship can be left alone if it is slow and the other ships are outmatched.

If you want the "defending" ships to surge forward and protect the main ship, you can order that by telling them to eliminate the threat! Select them and right click the enemy. Once they are engaged and the main ship has had a chance to vent/repair knocked out weapons, cancelling the eliminate order is a good idea because otherwise the smaller ships are both going to block the line of fire and are also going to get killed.

Escort is a much shorter leash, and it assigns ships to fall behind and to the sides of the escorted ship - it might be better called "Protect Flanks" though that is a bit of a mouthful. If the escort is short ranged, or not aggressive, they won't even be able to fire at what is in front of a capital! So they aren't that great at protecting the "escorted" ship from the front. However they will stick to their posts quite well so are good for stopping a ship from getting flanked on the side, because they won't chase other ships very far at all. I strongly prefer having aggressive or reckless escorts with decent range, because in that case they are more willing to push forward and can fire forward. The same trick of ordering an escort to 'eliminate' a target in front that you need them to kill applies to get them to really go forward and cover, with the same caveat of cancelling the order when appropriate.

HVD/Mauler/flak Enforcers (officered or not) with aggressive/reckless settings make fantastic escorts as they are tough enough to survive capital level firepower (for a short time at least), shoot down fighters and missiles, bring missiles of their own for finishing support, and can even bring an escort fighter too, though that starts to eat into the OP budget a lot. Plus by being escorts the primary weaknesses of the enforcer (slow, vulnerable to getting swarmed) are mitigated.

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calantlar

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Re: How do you make the game's AI work?
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2023, 07:36:37 AM »

What's bugging me is that DEFEND order is really useless. Assigned to defend ships will stay afk behind and watch "defended" ship die no matter what... or maybe I just need "SUICIDE DEFEND" button and more reckless officers.

I think it suffers mainly from lack of explanation, along with escort, because both are very useful, but only if you know what they do.

Defend would be better named "Rally" in my mind, because that is what it does: it makes a good number of ships use the spot/ship as the center of their movement area. Like normal, if your ships in that area are winning, they will push forward and attack. If they are losing, they will be pushed back. This means that the "defended" ship can be left alone if it is slow and the other ships are outmatched.

If you want the "defending" ships to surge forward and protect the main ship, you can order that by telling them to eliminate the threat! Select them and right click the enemy. Once they are engaged and the main ship has had a chance to vent/repair knocked out weapons, cancelling the eliminate order is a good idea because otherwise the smaller ships are both going to block the line of fire and are also going to get killed.

Escort is a much shorter leash, and it assigns ships to fall behind and to the sides of the escorted ship - it might be better called "Protect Flanks" though that is a bit of a mouthful. If the escort is short ranged, or not aggressive, they won't even be able to fire at what is in front of a capital! So they aren't that great at protecting the "escorted" ship from the front. However they will stick to their posts quite well so are good for stopping a ship from getting flanked on the side, because they won't chase other ships very far at all. I strongly prefer having aggressive or reckless escorts with decent range, because in that case they are more willing to push forward and can fire forward. The same trick of ordering an escort to 'eliminate' a target in front that you need them to kill applies to get them to really go forward and cover, with the same caveat of cancelling the order when appropriate.

HVD/Mauler/flak Enforcers (officered or not) with aggressive/reckless settings make fantastic escorts as they are tough enough to survive capital level firepower (for a short time at least), shoot down fighters and missiles, bring missiles of their own for finishing support, and can even bring an escort fighter too, though that starts to eat into the OP budget a lot. Plus by being escorts the primary weaknesses of the enforcer (slow, vulnerable to getting swarmed) are mitigated.

An excellent and accurate summation of the differences in behaviour between the two commands.
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Daynen

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Re: How do you make the game's AI work?
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2023, 05:22:50 PM »

Mjolnirs are not the best large ballistic, they're a luxury weapon that basically only fits on a Conquest because nothing else has enough flux to support it.

My Atlas mk II would like a word with you.
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BCS

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Re: How do you make the game's AI work?
« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2023, 08:50:32 PM »

Well it better be a short word because Atlas Mk.II runs out of flux after two syllabes
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