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[memeextremist]

yeah, Alex. I just want to say that you adding scarabs and hyperions to the indies is the coolest flex for them. 'we have godfrigates but we won't bug you about your transponder. stick around and explore with us, starfarer!'

best faction gets better

[Zaizai]

I think the problem with the executor is not that is weak or strong, but the extremely underwhelming flux dissipation makes it unfun to build. 
Found a cryoblaster? "oh wow I can use it on the executor to take advantage of the extra range from the hullmod! how cool is tha....that's 500 flux, about half of the ship's entire vents" 
So highly flux efficient beams here we go... 
The gigacannons seems to be made for this ship, however the 10 seconds refire makes for a waste of large energy mounts, pushing us towards either tachyon or HIL. 
Everything other than lasers is excruciatingly bad. I guess that's by design but a tiny bit of leeway wouldn't hurt imho...enough to maybe equip a slot or two with something else rather than the most flux efficient weapon in that category.

[Spaceman_Spiff]

I think the problem with the executor is not that is weak or strong, but the extremely underwhelming flux dissipation makes it unfun to build. 
Found a cryoblaster? "oh wow I can use it on the executor to take advantage of the extra range from the hullmod! how cool is tha....that's 500 flux, about half of the ship's entire vents" 
So highly flux efficient beams here we go... 
The gigacannons seems to be made for this ship, however the 10 seconds refire makes for a waste of large energy mounts, pushing us towards either tachyon or HIL. 
Everything other than lasers is excruciatingly bad. I guess that's by design but a tiny bit of leeway wouldn't hurt imho...enough to maybe equip a slot or two with something else rather than the most flux efficient weapon in that category.

I've had some success with dual Auto-Pulse Lasers. Executor's deal seems to be that it's a reliable fleet anchor that can't afford anything extravagant, but can move faster than a Paragon without being as vulnerable when unsupported as an Onslaught.

[Talgo]

Is anyone using the Hephaestus Assault Gun on anything to good effect? Anything at all?

I've been using one on a Retribution with a pair of Mk9s in the other Large Ballistics, and it works quite well at chewing up pirates (which I end up fighting at least as often as everyone else). Definitely not an all-comers fit because it's still horrendous against heavy armor, but the HAG doesn't let up when my flux is near maximum and the Orion Device lets me flag down the faster and more fragile ships the the gun seems to be meant to engage. Still wouldn't put one on anything I expect to primarily engage cruisers or capitals though.

[Doctorhealsgood]

I just got my hands on an executor. I am probably going to be executed for doing this but i have just put mining blasters on all the medium ballistic and hybrid slots because i thought it was funny

[BaBosa]

Thank you everyone for your feedback!

What kind of a situation do you have in mind?

This is a ship that still has only 50 top speed and is a capital so is a large target and can't mount SO. Currently, it can fly up to a station and tank the damage, but with a Conquest's shields that would no longer be realistic. The Conquest can't despite better mobility and better flux stats. (It can fight stations but needs to use its mobility and range or needs support).

If you put unstable injector on it, you will lose long range firepower, which is a very significant tradeoff if it no longer has the defenses for close quarters combat that it does now. If it is more vulnerable to flanking and enemy fire then it is unrealistic to just fly it into an enemy fleet, too.

I was thinking something along the lines of driving up to enemy battleships - while there's combat going on all around, more or less - and just deleting them one at a time. Or cruisers if they get in the way; I'm not picky It seems like it'd have enough mobility for that.

Thank you for doing all the tests, btw! I really appreciate it.

It looks like another hotfix is pretty likely, by the way, and I'd love to get another Pegasus adjustment into it. I tried improving the FMR AI - and did - but mostly what it does with a 2-large-slot-Pegasus is make it use the ammo faster; it's not as good as I thought it'd be.

I don't want to give it a really bad shield efficiency, though - it's still a battleship, and that starts to feel more like a battlecruiser philosophy or mobility and firepower rather than defenses and firepower. Right now I was thinking something like:

1) Back to 4 large missile slots
2) Remove the special ship flag that lets its missile slots turn (in retrospect, that's a no-brainer to rein in any Cyclone concerns, the ship *has a special flag* that makes these an issue in the first place)
3) Shield efficiency to 0.8, the midline standard (Not sure if the Executor should be affected here, too or not - my impression is that the Executor is in a good place right now)
4) Movement speed to 35 (the Executor keeps it 50 and gets larger engine glows)
5) Possibly DP to 60; not sure if that's needed or not

At least, that's what I'm thinking at the moment. Could very well change, I'm not settled on any of it.

The changes feel right to me. Makes it about on par with the Paragon and Invictus while having a completely different identity. Gives each tech level a powerful but slow core ship for 60DP.  I had not realized that the missile slots need a special flag to turn, removing that would curb the torpedo spam kills. If it's still a little too OP then reducing FMR charges would finish bringing it in line.

Keeping the executor as is (maybe add dissipation) sounds good and could be explained as the FMR system with 4 large missiles taking up huge space that when removed, leaves room for bigger engines, bigger shield generator, and everything else.

[Sts678]

Thank you everyone for your feedback!

What kind of a situation do you have in mind?

This is a ship that still has only 50 top speed and is a capital so is a large target and can't mount SO. Currently, it can fly up to a station and tank the damage, but with a Conquest's shields that would no longer be realistic. The Conquest can't despite better mobility and better flux stats. (It can fight stations but needs to use its mobility and range or needs support).

If you put unstable injector on it, you will lose long range firepower, which is a very significant tradeoff if it no longer has the defenses for close quarters combat that it does now. If it is more vulnerable to flanking and enemy fire then it is unrealistic to just fly it into an enemy fleet, too.

I was thinking something along the lines of driving up to enemy battleships - while there's combat going on all around, more or less - and just deleting them one at a time. Or cruisers if they get in the way; I'm not picky It seems like it'd have enough mobility for that.

Thank you for doing all the tests, btw! I really appreciate it.

It looks like another hotfix is pretty likely, by the way, and I'd love to get another Pegasus adjustment into it. I tried improving the FMR AI - and did - but mostly what it does with a 2-large-slot-Pegasus is make it use the ammo faster; it's not as good as I thought it'd be.

I don't want to give it a really bad shield efficiency, though - it's still a battleship, and that starts to feel more like a battlecruiser philosophy or mobility and firepower rather than defenses and firepower. Right now I was thinking something like:

1) Back to 4 large missile slots
2) Remove the special ship flag that lets its missile slots turn (in retrospect, that's a no-brainer to rein in any Cyclone concerns, the ship *has a special flag* that makes these an issue in the first place)
3) Shield efficiency to 0.8, the midline standard (Not sure if the Executor should be affected here, too or not - my impression is that the Executor is in a good place right now)
4) Movement speed to 35 (the Executor keeps it 50 and gets larger engine glows)
5) Possibly DP to 60; not sure if that's needed or not

At least, that's what I'm thinking at the moment. Could very well change, I'm not settled on any of it.

The changes feel right to me. Makes it about on par with the Paragon and Invictus while having a completely different identity. Gives each tech level a powerful but slow core ship for 60DP.  I had not realized that the missile slots need a special flag to turn, removing that would curb the torpedo spam kills. If it's still a little too OP then reducing FMR charges would finish bringing it in line.

Keeping the executor as is (maybe add dissipation) sounds good and could be explained as the FMR system with 4 large missiles taking up huge space that when removed, leaves room for bigger engines, bigger shield generator, and everything else.

I think the problem of Pegasus is caused by its system. 4 large missile slots can deal too much effective (long range, low flux cost and high accuracy) damage in a short duration combined with Fast Missile Racks. Maybe change the Pegasus's system is also a method? Maneuvering Jets or Missile Autoforge can be suitable for Pegasus but not as strong as Fast Racks, or design a new System like the High Energy Focus for missile Weapons? It is unfair to Onslaught class if other battleships (not battle cruisers) are all 60dp , if you want to make a larger difference between BC and BB, please don't forget to buff Onslaught and raise its dp (50 or 55?). I am a fan of Onslaught and feel sad to see one of my favorite ships becomes less and less powerful through updates of the game when fighting with other battleships (including drone battleships).

[ANGRYABOUTELVES]

I just got my hands on an executor. I am probably going to be executed for doing this but i have just put mining blasters on all the medium ballistic and hybrid slots because i thought it was funny

All Mining Blasters is a meme, but 4 Mining Blaster + 2 Autopulse Executor with S-mod Expanded Mags, some kinetic ballistics, and Squalls or Locusts is a very dangerous capital and not a meme build at all.

[CapnHector]

I think the problem of Pegasus is caused by its system. 4 large missile slots can deal too much effective (long range, low flux cost and high accuracy) damage in a short duration combined with Fast Missile Racks. Maybe change the Pegasus's system is also a method? Maneuvering Jets or Missile Autoforge can be suitable for Pegasus but not as strong as Fast Racks, or design a new System like the High Energy Focus for missile Weapons? It is unfair to Onslaught class if other battleships (not battle cruisers) are all 60dp , if you want to make a larger difference between BC and BB, please don't forget to buff Onslaught and raise its dp (50 or 55?). I am a fan of Onslaught and feel sad to see one of my favorite ships becomes less and less powerful through updates of the game when fighting with other battleships (including drone battleships).

The Onslaught is still immensely powerful for 40DP and arguably the best playership in the game, even with Pegasus and even though I am a Conquest and Pegasus fan. You should check out the systematic testing done by user Vanshilar. Even though he optimizes his fleet carefully and searches for the best combinations using exacting tools to analyze damage output his playership Onslaught does a significant chunk of the total damage, for example one of his battle reports had his Onslaught XIV doing 34% of the damage done by his fleet and the rest of his fleet was 4 Conquests and 2 Gryphons with optimized layouts.

The Onslaught is simply put incredibly strong and will still be the golden standard for capital ships that others can only hope to measure up to.

That said if it is kept at 50 DP I think the Pegasus will be very strong, too. Which is good. Most capitals in this game are very strong ships and those that aren't (Prometheus MkII, Atlas MkII, Astral, arguably Odyssey) see very little play as a result.

[CapnHector]

@Alex I re-ran the tests for you using the same saves, same layouts, identical everything vs. the same Ordo and Jangala station, but setting shield efficiency to 0.8, top speed to 35 and removing the missile hardpoints rotate flag.

I ran the Ordo fight twice. The result was 1 win losing 2 Pegasi and 1 loss. With a lower top speed, the Pegasi seemed to be more vulnerable to being surrounded by Remnants, resulting in death. This compares to clean victories earlier.



I ran the Jangala station fight three times (plus one that ended in a freeze due to Intel IRIS bug, which seemed to be heading to a loss since a Pegasus had gone down early). The result was 2 wins with no losses - but taking damage, unlike previously, and 1 loss.

In addition the character of the fights has changed. The Pegasus is no longer an agile and aggressive combatant but a slow lumbering battleship that takes its time to approach the target.



So, you have successfully nerfed the Pegasus and it is clearly no longer as strong as before.

Based on these tests I would keep it at 50 DP, not 60 DP. This is because at the 60 DP price point we have Paragon and Radiant which would have no trouble with these fights. I would also not nerf it further since three strong capitals really should be able to fight a Star Fortress and five strong capitals really should be able to fight an Ordo. However, if a balancing lever is needed, the next step might be to touch the armor or move shield efficiency to 1.0. Personally I would like to see you keep it as it is ie. 4 large missiles, .8 shield, 35 top speed for maybe one version's time and collect more data.

[Lawrence Master-blaster]

The Onslaught is still immensely powerful for 40DP and arguably the best playership in the game, even with Pegasus and even though I am a Conquest and Pegasus fan.

I just want to point out that while there are many good flagship capitals, when it comes to AI you're basically only looking at the Conquest 1st and Odyssey distant 2nd. For many different reasons Onsluaght, Legion, Retribution, Invictus and Astral are all poor(or at least "nowhere near as good as they should be") in AI hands.

This is why I always take tales of "I did a thing in a ship" with a fistful of salt - yeah you, the player, did it, but could AI do it too? Probably not, so it should be entirely secondary consideration when it comes to balance IMO.

[CapnHector]

Yeah, under AI control the Conquest was strongest capital last version according to Vanshilar, assuming player fields an Onslaught and does the tanking; whether it is still so in .96 remains to be seen because what made Conquest so strong was double Squall combined with large ballistics and the former were significantly (and deservedly imho) nerfed. The Onslaught is a bit special because due to its all out assault into vent and armor tank mechanics it uniquely rewards good strategic decision making which the player is much better at.

[Sts678]

I think the problem of Pegasus is caused by its system. 4 large missile slots can deal too much effective (long range, low flux cost and high accuracy) damage in a short duration combined with Fast Missile Racks. Maybe change the Pegasus's system is also a method? Maneuvering Jets or Missile Autoforge can be suitable for Pegasus but not as strong as Fast Racks, or design a new System like the High Energy Focus for missile Weapons? It is unfair to Onslaught class if other battleships (not battle cruisers) are all 60dp , if you want to make a larger difference between BC and BB, please don't forget to buff Onslaught and raise its dp (50 or 55?). I am a fan of Onslaught and feel sad to see one of my favorite ships becomes less and less powerful through updates of the game when fighting with other battleships (including drone battleships).

The Onslaught is still immensely powerful for 40DP and arguably the best playership in the game, even with Pegasus and even though I am a Conquest and Pegasus fan. You should check out the systematic testing done by user Vanshilar. Even though he optimizes his fleet carefully and searches for the best combinations using exacting tools to analyze damage output his playership Onslaught does a significant chunk of the total damage, for example one of his battle reports had his Onslaught XIV doing 34% of the damage done by his fleet and the rest of his fleet was 4 Conquests and 2 Gryphons with optimized layouts.

The Onslaught is simply put incredibly strong and will still be the golden standard for capital ships that others can only hope to measure up to.

That said if it is kept at 50 DP I think the Pegasus will be very strong, too. Which is good. Most capitals in this game are very strong ships and those that aren't (Prometheus MkII, Atlas MkII, Astral, arguably Odyssey) see very little play as a result.

The Onslaught is still powerful enough for a 40 DP battleship. As you have mentioned, Onslaught is a golden standard for capital ships. I just want to express that it may be not good to add so many 60DP battleships (Paragon, Invictus, Radiant and the future Pegasus) to the game if the golden standard Onslaught is only 40 DP.  I am more willing to see most battleships have 35 to 50 DP with some special ships having higher (drone battleships or boss ships like Ziggurat) or lower (pirate or luddic path's battleships) DP.

[PizzaInSpace]

I've been meaning to ask but when I see hullmods I noticed they had the term common as their type. Was their any plans to make rare or very experimental hullmods that players had to obtain?

[Lawrence Master-blaster]

Yeah, under AI control the Conquest was strongest capital last version according to Vanshilar, assuming player fields an Onslaught and does the tanking; whether it is still so in .96 remains to be seen because what made Conquest so strong was double Squall combined with large ballistics and the former were significantly (and deservedly imho) nerfed.

The Squalls were actually buffed in their anti-shield role, the damage increasing from 250 kinetic to 100+200 kinetic. What they did lose was damage against armor and the EMP effect. Which means you can't rely on *just* the Squalls for everything anymore, and that was the entire idea behind the nerf.

For a typical Conquest with two Mjolnirs, two HVDs and an Ion Beam the nerf doesn't really change much. Squalls still strip shields, turrets still apply armor damage and EMP.