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[Alex]

Funny you say that, because the Hurricane was nerfed specifically since the Pegasus was introduced.

(100% unrelated, btw. Literally 100%. Edit: unless I'm ... misremembering very badly? I recall tweaking the Squall because I felt like the Pegasus made it clear that the Squall had an issue of being too good of a finisher - not just on the Pegasus, but overall - but the Hurricane I seem to remember tweaking before the Pegasus existed, and it was intended as not a nerf, but rather a tradeoff of reducing the warhead count but also reducing its reliance on ECCM.)

[Megas]

Hurricane MIRV was not the only problematic missile with Pegasus.  Cyclone Reaper on a fast enough Pegasus (from Combat skills) can drive up to a large target and spam Cyclones four at a time (two per launcher).  And a pilot with 3x missiles has 60 of them per launcher.

I guess medium Typhoon may be strong too, but only half the Reapers per shot, and only 21 per launcher at best.

(100% unrelated, btw. Literally 100%. Edit: unless I'm ... misremembering very badly? I recall tweaking the Squall because I felt like the Pegasus made it clear that the Squall had an issue of being too good of a finisher - not just on the Pegasus, but overall - but the Hurricane I seem to remember tweaking before the Pegasus existed, and it was intended as not a nerf, but rather a tradeoff of reducing the warhead count but also reducing its reliance on ECCM.)

I thought you wrote something like that.

[Alex]

Yeah - I wonder if weaker defenses can compensate for the Cyclone issue or not.

[lithyf]

I feel like the solution should prioritize nerfing the Pegasus in a way that sets it apart from other midline capitals. Nerfing the shield and armor makes its disadvantages overlap with that of the Conquest battlecruiser, and does not do much to impair the effectiveness of a long-range Pegasus build.

Here are the tweaks I personally made to the Pegasus that seemed to have reigned in its effectiveness while preserving the wealth of loadout options available with x4 Large missile slots, at least based on my limited playtesting:
-Reverted hardpoints and variants to RC-8 versions
-Reduced top speed to 35 from 50
-Reduced OP to 350 from 365
-Reduced ship system to a max of 1 charge, and recharge rate to 0.6 (ideally it would be a separate ship system, but this was my first attempt at modding)
-Tangentially, reduced max Hydra MDEM capacity to 12, which helps reign in Pegasus' long range sustainability

At that speed the capital still feels more agile in terms of lateral/backwards movement than other battleship, but is caught by the like of destroyers/frigates, or even onslaught/legion significantly easier, giving it a need to have a screen of escort ships or dedicate 1-2 of its slots to the like of locusts or hydras. Torpedo builds would need to exercise far more caution not only due to the nerf to FMR charges, but because of the ship's nerfed ability to both reach its target quickly or disengage. At 35 top speed and 1 FMR charge, I struggled against frigate and destroyer swarms that surrounded me and drove my flux up (since I could not just delete everything around me by spamming FMR, nor disengage as easily,) giving me the difficult choice of ignoring this potentially lethal nuisance to dedicate my attention and limited ammunition to larger threats, or trying to very wastefully target the small ships around me as enemy cruisers closed in.

In other words it feels more like a proper battleship, requiring the support of smaller vessels, as opposed to the Conquest which functions better as a flanker.

I'm sure Alex can come up with a more elegant solution but personally I prefer my set up to the post-RC9 version of the pegasus for the following reasons:

-Loadout options are dramatically reduced without 4 Large Hardpoints, if you want to build a range-matched 2000/2500su loadout then your only option is the Harpoon+Squall which is an effective and boring solution identical to many Conquest setups, or perhaps Squall/Hydra+Dragonfires but either way your ship basically loses its burst damage within the first minute or two of the engagement and from then on it becomes a squall-spamming auxiliary ship; The front Medium slots have the knock-on effect of bottle-necking the usefulness and tactical adaptability of the ship as a whole

-One of the issue with the ship IMO is its very impressive number of OP points, which is only exacerbated by dropping the front slots to medium without also adjusting its OP; too easy to get all the hullmods you need while also maxing vents and caps, to my taste (which in turn exacerbates the issue with FMR through augmented flux stats)

-Again, base ship speed of 50 overemphasizes its ability to crush other battleships, since it can generally kite them (if not battlecruisers) with relative ease, and regardless of it lacking maneuvering jets, I feel like it having a higher cruise speed than the Conquest battlecruiser feels like an unnecessary, overlapping strength of the two ships

Besides this bit of compulsive rambling, I have a link to a little mod containing the above changes as well as some DEM-related thoughts and tweaks, but I am not sure what the appropriate place to share it may be. I'd figure I'd pitch into the Pegasus discourse while it is still actively relevant. 

[Tigasboss]

Regarding the Pegasus i think making its shield bad (like Conquest Bad) should be a good enough nerf because as it stands it doesn't even need pd since its shield can take enough punishment that it can spam the FMR skill and have enough flux to not over-flux.

It has shields as good as a Paragon (0.6 flux/dam), with shield related skills, and hardened shields at 100%CR it has a shield flux/dam of 0.37 which is incredible, specially in a midline since the last midline capital had such bad shields.

If the player had to chose between either spamming reapers and risk over-fluxing or face-tanking damage (maybe nerf the armor a bit too to make it more risky) or only using a few and backing off before it gets over-fluxed, then i feel the ship would be in a good spot.

The problem with the Pegasus is that it trades with other ships extremely well, if it was a glass cannon then i think it wouldn't be so bad that it had the 4 large slots.

Unrelated but i have satbombed Chalcedon multiple times and it just doesn't die, is it because of the quest?

[Sly]

I'd be perfectly fine with the Hurricane being faster, more accurate, and/or more powerful - but it's not a close range strike weapon like the Reaper series - it has tracking in the first stage and long range. Should it really also be able to consistently hit a shielded cruiser or capital ship with no flux accumulated and undamaged moderate-to-heavy point defenses?

With torpedoes, when you want consistent accuracy you need to move into range of your target's ballistic and energy weapons. Otherwise the best you can usually hope for is a hit to an armored area, unless your target has sustained heavy damage, or is particularly large.

Hurricane MIRV was not the only problematic missile with Pegasus.  Cyclone Reaper on a fast enough Pegasus (from Combat skills) can drive up to a large target and spam Cyclones four at a time (two per launcher).  And a pilot with 3x missiles has 60 of them per launcher.

At least you have to drive up to them, aim your large hard point launcher to fire, then awkwardly swing around to the other launcher and fire again. If you can do that reliably without risking withering enemy fire, then I think you're one hell of a marksman. And forget about hitting mobile targets at a safe range, they'll just move. It's not exactly fast moving, even with MS and ECCM.

[Megas]

At least you have to drive up to them, aim your large hard point launcher to fire, then awkwardly swing around to the other launcher and fire again. If you can do that reliably without risking withering enemy fire, then I think you're one hell of a marksman. And forget about hitting mobile targets at a safe range, they'll just move. It's not exactly fast moving, even with MS and ECCM.

There is a range where torpedoes (and heavy energy weapons on Executor) will converge.  With three FMR charges, Pegasus can dump up to 16 torpedoes in quick succession and aimed at desired targets in front of Pegasus without much difficulty.  In the sim, I could snuff two SIM Onslaughts in a few seconds.  If MIRV x8 is deadly enough, Reaper x16 is even more damage.  Yes, Reapers are not as safe, but it could be necessary if player needs more firepower.  I have run out of MIRVs in fights caused by excessive FMR use.

Pegasus with Helmsmanship and elite Impact Mitigation is not very clumsy at all.  It can turn at a respectable speed.

Aside, even Invictus with both combat skills is not excessively slow to turn.  It is maneuverable enough to point at my target and mow down whatever with Lidar whenever I need to soon enough.

[Fenrir]

Funny you say that, because the Hurricane was nerfed specifically since the Pegasus was introduced. Now I find them meh, they were strong on one ship in total, now that ship is no more. So you can see the problem was Pegasus with FMR, not Hurricane. We can't keep nerfing homing miasiles just so one ship isn't insanely strong.

Squall says she totally agree.

[Fenrir]

Agreement with pirate king from nearby hidden base automatically cease effects as soon as hostile activity progress reached 0, not sure if intended. However, I still wish to keep the agreement since shipment disruptions still occur from time to time even with 0 hostile progress, I'd rather profit 10% less in alternative to unreliable shipping. The dialog with the king is also kinda bugged when progress is 0, it keeps cycling dialog of "We have business to discuss".

@Alex can we get any response to this please? Thanks a lot!

[CapnHector]

Yeah - I wonder if weaker defenses can compensate for the Cyclone issue or not.

What kind of a situation do you have in mind?

This is a ship that still has only 50 top speed and is a capital so is a large target and can't mount SO. Currently, it can fly up to a station and tank the damage, but with a Conquest's shields that would no longer be realistic. The Conquest can't despite better mobility and better flux stats. (It can fight stations but needs to use its mobility and range or needs support).

If you put unstable injector on it, you will lose long range firepower, which is a very significant tradeoff if it no longer has the defenses for close quarters combat that it does now. If it is more vulnerable to flanking and enemy fire then it is unrealistic to just fly it into an enemy fleet, too.

However another thing is you should probably adjust the Cyclone Reaper's ammo capacity to mitigate this issue. The current ammo capacity is such that, with my Pegasus fleet last release, under AI control the Cyclones lasted all the way through a triple Ordo fight despite active use from the start. That is silly, much as I like the weapon. It should be a finisher, not a main gun. As it is I can see Cyclone Reaper Manticore (LP) being able to just spam Cyclones through multiple fleets too, with the appropriate hullmod and skills. It could have half the ammo capacity and still be good, but then you couldn't use it as a main gun on your Pegasus in prolonged engagements.

The Manticores, even with the nerf, can bring 4 forward facing mobile Cyclone Reapers for 56 DP, come to mention it. I'm not saying that is a problem (I do not have experience with that ship yet) but it's a point of comparison.

Edit to add: also I'd like to note there are plenty of playership builds already with insane dps output in a one on one so that should not be a balancing issue but realistic fleet settings. If a 50 DP capital can't delete sim Onslaughts when optimized for the purpose and under player control then something is very wrong when even a such as a Drover or SO Condor can.

[CapnHector]

To illustrate how defense affects the ship's ability to leverage Cyclone Reaper spam, I did a few test runs again. This is last release and vanilla, with no mods.

I refitted my Ordo farming fleet into a "station buster" configuration with 2x Cyclone Reaper in front and 2x Squall in back. All ships are identical up to D-mods. The ships have aggressive officers with no orders given and all ships under AI control.



We fight Jangala star fortress alone and only deploy the Pegasi.


Now, in both cases, deploying all 6 Pegasi is enough to take out the Star Fortress with no losses. However, if we only deploy 3 Pegasi, with original stats:

The Pegasi can close in, tank hits, fire missiles until the station is destroyed with no losses.




Exact same configuration, armor set to 1200, shield efficiency set to 1.2 in ship_data.csv:

The Pegasi cannot close in due to firepower from the Star Fortress. Despite having the potential to spam Cyclones they lose the fight and inflict relatively little damage.



I repeated this combat twice. The first time I got the same result, so it is not a fluke. The second time I also deployed the 6 Glimmers and that time the 3 Pegasi were able to approach with the cover of the frigates and destroyed the station with Reaper spam, losing 1 Pegasus and all the frigates. So that illustrates how the fleet dynamics change when the Pegasus is no longer a tank and requires cover.

[Lucky33]

And now for something completely different.

While doing early bounties (70-90K) I've noticed that very frequently (half the time and its clearly random) the resulting debris is of very low density. Like 0.2-0.3. Meaning that even with salvaging skill and two rigs I'm getting almost no resources. While in AI on AI fights I've never saw those low density debris fields. Is it a bug?

Even without it those bounties are resource negative with all resource gathering skills. But with this they turn into a bad joke. And while we are at it: why exactly pure combat fleets became so low on resources? I mean with that level there is no need to destroy them just force them to deploy their ships, shoot for cheap damage then disengage and this is it. They will run out of supplies. Except they don't.

So what's the point of those bounties in current version? Piracy in the Core provides the very same experience/ships/weapons, much more resources and more money from exploiting deficits. To get something different you need those special bounties from the contacts. And from the looks of it, current bounties are more of a noob trap or something like that. Things that you are not supposed to do.

[Sly]

A sim test, but still thought provoking. Some excellent points.

I was super wrong about the angle of the hard points on the front. Apologies for the misunderstanding. I misremembered and thought the hard points on the front of the Pegasus were angled like the ones on the back. Angling them all at 45 degrees to either side would be a pretty easy way to discourage cyclone spam. This is strictly my opinion, but I think it would look cooler that way anyhow.

Putting that aside, I've done what I could to mimic the sim encounter you mentioned. I was already specc'd for it skill wise, so altering a Pegasus I had laying around (on the last patch, mind you), and gave it a whirl, configuring the ship for a Reaper barrage. I ran the combat twenty or so times. When paired with Squalls in the aft and Cyclones on the fore, as well as with a large array of Graviton Beams, the strategy was very consistent. I think even if the ship was staffed with officers with the PD skill and equipped with IPDAI, it would still struggle to shoot down the incoming torpedoes, due to the Squall barrage.

I think a good takeaway from this experiment is that it might be a good idea for point defenses to prioritize torpedoes/high damage missiles over fighters and lower damage missiles, even if another missile is closer, or they already have a target. The exception being flares, under normal conditions. At the very least, it would be helpful to de-prioritize "hard" missiles like the Squall or Breach.

Thanks for responding Megas. I often find that I agree with you, even while lurking.

A clear, detailed experiment with pictures. (x2)

That's pretty cool! I went back and reviewed the last test you did as well. I've changed my mind, and I think your position on the defense reduction - while still allowing the ship to retain all four large missile hardpoints - is sound. I would add that the cyclone spam could be rendered very inconvenient by my suggestion above: angling the forward missile hard points 45 degrees to either side.

Thanks for the analysis, Capn.

---

Pegasus aside, I feel pretty strongly that reducing the Typhoon to 3 or 4 ammo and the Cyclone to 8 or 10 is long overdue. I use Reapers a lot - seriously, almost constantly - and while I don't often fly ships that can equip a Typhoon or even a Cyclone, I've thought for the last few releases they had way too much ammo capacity for such a bulky, tanky, high damage torpedo. I think its fine otherwise, just far too abundant in its medium and large incarnations. In a ship with Fast Missile Racks we can see how obscene the Cyclone can be.

The Cyclone's closest comparison is the Hammer Barrage, capable of outputting a total of 30,000 high explosive damage, while the Cyclone can spit out a grand total of 80,000. 9,000 vs 28,000 for the Jackhammer vs. the Typhoon, respectively: over three times more! On top of that, the Reaper far outclasses the Hammer already in burst damage, even in a barrage. After all, a higher damage single attack trumps several lower damage attacks against armor. The Hammer series is cheaper in terms of OP cost, but not enough to be significant - nor would I recommend altering their OP cost. Hammer torpedoes are also easier to shoot down since they're flimsier, even if they are faster.

In terms of ammo capacity, I think 4 for the Typhoon and 8 for the Cyclone is the way to go. If you want/need more, there are ways to do that.

[Grievous69]

Funny you say that, because the Hurricane was nerfed specifically since the Pegasus was introduced.

(100% unrelated, btw. Literally 100%. Edit: unless I'm ... misremembering very badly? I recall tweaking the Squall because I felt like the Pegasus made it clear that the Squall had an issue of being too good of a finisher - not just on the Pegasus, but overall - but the Hurricane I seem to remember tweaking before the Pegasus existed, and it was intended as not a nerf, but rather a tradeoff of reducing the warhead count but also reducing its reliance on ECCM.)

Currently doesn't really feel like much of a tradeoff, slight nerf maybe. But the way those two are connected in my head is because I remember a thread where people were scared of the 4 large missile ship and started theorycrafting builds. That's where you came in and said how the Hurricane got reduced burst size but better tracking. I don't know in which thread this happened, but it was for sure something related to missile spam.

[SCC]

My experience with Cyclone is that you don't use it, because Hammer Barrage has higher DPS and by the time you run out of ammo, the enemy runs out of ships.