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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Starsector 0.96a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 319189 times)

Hiruma Kai

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #930 on: May 13, 2023, 07:46:50 PM »

I think the biggest problem with Fast Missile Racks is it is 2.5 to 4 times stronger than AAF, and 5 to 8 times stronger than HEF, and 5 to 8 times stronger than Targeting Feed.  And with Systems Expertise, Fast Missile Racks can recover back to peak capability in ~27 seconds.

Fire, use charge and 1 second cooldown, Fire, use 2nd charge and 1 second cooldown, Fire, use 3rd charge and 1 second cooldown, Fire, use 4th charge and 1 second cooldown, Fire.

That's 5 salvos in 4 seconds.  If you're using 15 second refire time missiles, like say Hurricanes, you just dropped 5 salvos in 4 seconds, and 7 salvos in 15 seconds (recharge 2 more charges), compared to the usual 1 salvo in 4 seconds, or 2 salvos in 15 seconds.

So in terms of a 15 second window, you've done +250% damage (7/2 = 3.5).  In a 4 second window you've done +400% (5/1 =5).

In a 5 second window, AAF increases DPS by +100%.  In a 3-9 second window, HEF increases DPS and hit strength by +50%.

Given the objective is to get missiles on target, there's no real cost to using Fast Missile Racks under human control since you can predict how many missiles you'll actually need. What keeps Fast Missile Racks in check is its typically the secondary weapon system, not the primary. 

+400% effective burst damage strikes me as really hard to balance.  Even +250% over 15 seconds seems kind of hard to balance.  Either a missile battleship has enough missiles to kill several enemy battleships over the course of a battle, and Fast missile racks lets you dump them in bursts of +400%, or it doesn't at which point Fast Missile Racks is applying to the secondary weapons loadout and you run out after the first one or two.

I know it's boring, but if you changed to a system like Charged Missiles or something, that dealt an additional +50% damage (maybe deal half the missile's damage as a separate energy damage instance just to be different - except frag would also be frag) for the next set of missiles launched, it'd be much easier to balance, since it'd be in line with the other damage systems damage buffs.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2023, 07:49:50 PM by Hiruma Kai »
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Lawrence Master-blaster

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #931 on: May 13, 2023, 08:51:53 PM »

Clearly the way to go with the pegasus is to bring back the 4 large missiles and give it HEF like its brother ;D

What if it had a HEF that only affected DEM missiles?
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PureTilt

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #932 on: May 13, 2023, 09:22:58 PM »

My idea for an alternative Pegasus shipsystem (under the 4 large design) would be launching decoy flares (the ones fighters have that distract PD) at the selected target.

Hmm. It'd probably be too short-range but as-is but jeez, that could be fun.

Simple make it launch missiles which launch decoy flares.
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llama

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #933 on: May 13, 2023, 09:30:23 PM »

Clearly the way to go with the pegasus is to bring back the 4 large missiles and give it HEF like its brother ;D

What if it had a HEF that only affected DEM missiles?

I feel like the game generally tries not to incentivise one subset of weapons in a given mount so much, and this would narrow build diversity a bit.

But on the subject of the large DEMs, it seems like the consensus is they're less powerful than the top tier large missiles right now? Maybe they've been held back by having to be balanced against a single ship that can fire eight or more at once.
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Wyvern

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #934 on: May 13, 2023, 09:43:03 PM »

My idea for an alternative Pegasus shipsystem (under the 4 large design) would be launching decoy flares (the ones fighters have that distract PD) at the selected target.

Hmm. It'd probably be too short-range but as-is but jeez, that could be fun.
I mean, we've already got a ship that literally teleports mines into place near a target. Teleporting a bunch of flares seems like it'd be easier to manage...
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tovarichcookie

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #935 on: May 13, 2023, 10:35:56 PM »

Losing the 4 large missile slots on the pegasus hurts like hell! The massive quintuple missile barrage burst is a bit broken, but hell, it was FUN!

But if fast missile racks make the ship broken, some of the previous suggestions like teleporting flares or super ECCM sound like great and fun ideas. But whatever it takes, having 4 large missile slots is key to its identity and gives it an immediate, recognizable and distinct feel compared to all the other battleships.

My personal suggestion would be to make its active ability project a shield bubble to all missiles in flight while active, making them not only much more resistant to PD fire, but also block incoming damage from other weapons so you can use it as a temporary tanking ability for your fleet. Hope to see quad large missile pegasus back soon!

CapnHector

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #936 on: May 13, 2023, 10:49:58 PM »

In the spirit of continuing the dead-horse beating, it doesn't really need a fancy new system to stand out or even a system that has anything to do with missiles to stand out.

It would have a fine unique identity as the only ship with 4 large missiles even if the system was Active Flare Launcher. 4 large missiles + Active Flare Launcher would imho be a more interesting and unique ship than 2 medium + 2 large + Fast Missile Racks.
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SCC

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #937 on: May 13, 2023, 10:58:48 PM »

I liked the idea of a ship system that gives torpedoes guidance and improves tracking of already guided missiles.

Zaizai

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #938 on: May 13, 2023, 11:06:44 PM »

I spent *a while* trying to come up with an interesting missile-related ship system, let me tell you! IIRC none of the ideas made, falling either into the "hilariously overpowered" or "just a more complicated way to spell fast missile racks" categories, with a smattering of "how would the AI even"... Not to say that it's not possible, but it's tricky - though in all honesty, I don't remember many details now.
How about going the opposite way? make a hullmod built in the ship that makes all the missiles regenerating like pilums, but with only 1 charge and a HUGE cooldown, and a ship system that speeds up that cooldown time in exchange for flux? 
This way you can still have your 4 big missiles, but you can't destroy a fleet of capitals like before, because you have to rely on the ship system to rearm them (and you can balance how many times you want players to fire those missiles, by adjusting the ship system itself, its cooldown/flux generation etc). 

This has the interesting side effect of making missiles already limited by ammo regenerations like pilums, better, thus making a support pegasus build with 4 large pilums not just a meme but something that might actually be interesting (otherwise one would never use a capital for that reason). 
And of course, it would become the prime candidate for the[REDACTED] missile weapons as well.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2023, 11:24:26 PM by Zaizai »
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Lucky33

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #939 on: May 13, 2023, 11:34:08 PM »

I spent *a while* trying to come up with an interesting missile-related ship system, let me tell you! IIRC none of the ideas made, falling either into the "hilariously overpowered" or "just a more complicated way to spell fast missile racks" categories, with a smattering of "how would the AI even"... Not to say that it's not possible, but it's tricky - though in all honesty, I don't remember many details now.

Omnimissile. Combat ability to pick missile types in a fixed mount. It allows you to break the spell and to have virtual mounts what are not affecting DPS.

I mean the true problem of any pure missile build is what you need several missile types to do different jobs. And the only way to get about it is to have several mounts. But if number of mounts is becoming too high player can and will exploit it by spamming strike ordnance. So you need the ability to switch missile types on the fly and limit the number of mounts.
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Delta_of_Isaire

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #940 on: May 13, 2023, 11:44:31 PM »

Review time! These are genuinely my first impressions of the new weapons, from messing around with them in sim battles via devmode > edit variants.

TL;DR:
> Sarissa has too much DPS. Latest patch fixes this.
> Kinetic Blaster and Gigacannon are very niche.
> Mining Blaster is awesome.
> Gorgons are awesome, lethal to Frigates.
> Hydra by contrast is underwhelming. The submunitions need higher speed.
> Medium mount Dragonfires are insane. They might need a longer refire delay.
> Large mount Dragonfire by contrast is a big letdown. It needs burst size 2.

SARISSA
>>> UPDATE: Latest patch reduces flux stats of Sarissa to balancing their DPS.
4x Sarissa on a Legion adds an impressive hailstorm of LAC rounds. Very good at taking out Frigates (including 2 Omen) and Destroyers attempting to flank the mothership. The Cannistar Flak is lethal against incoming fighters, and appears not to do friendly fire damage which is probably for the best. However the Sarissa are completely incapable of stopping Salamanders or things like Atropos strikes from Dagger bombers from hitting their mothership, so their capacity to function as anti-missile PD is limited. Well, that's just more obvious synergy with Xyphos I guess. Sarissa do hard-counter Piranha bombers though.

For the Legion, 2x Sarissa + 2x Xyphos + Defensive Targeting Array is a very strong defensive support package, that also synergizes well with the Legion's own weapons. Case in point: with this loadout and no other weapons, I could Burn Drive my legion into the face of the SIM Eagle (with its new shiny loadout) and watch as the fighters proceeded to pick it apart. Then I did the same thing with SIM Aurora. And then with the SIM Astral. Now of course Kinetic + Ion damage will cripple anything. But the raw DPS of the Sarissa is impressive. And killing an Astral with what is essentially just 4 fighter wings is kinda funny.
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KINETIC BLASTER
They're really cool! High damage per shot which means the armor penetration is actually kinda good. 600 range is the Energy weapon standard which I guess is fine. The main balance lever used here is high flux cost: 1.5 flux/damage. That is terrible compared to Ballistic Kinetic weapons and notably worse than the Minipulser. Very much in line with a Heavy Blaster, which I guess accounts for the 'blaster' part of the name. The big downside of such high flux cost is it hurts flux efficiency against hull, which means these weapons are really only good against the defensives they hit for 2x damage. And the big Elephant in the room is the Pulse Laser which has 0.8 flux/damage now. The Kinetic Blaster has 1.5 / 2 = 0.75 flux/damage against shields which is barely better than the Pulse Laser. Now Kinetic Blaster has a hit strength of 125 against armor compared to 100 for Pulse Laser. However with the Pulse Laser literally firing 3 shots for every 1 Kinetic Blaster shot, and for less flux to boot... I am really not seeing the appeal of the Kinetic Blaster. It is really only good on ships with plenty of flux to spare. Which is kind of a thing for High Tech ships anyway so it *might* work out. The DPS per mount is definitely higher for Blasters compared to Pulse Lasers.

On balance, I can't help but feel that combining a Heavy Blaster with Pulse Lasers is better overall than combining a Heavy Blaster with Kinetic Blasters. Preliminary SIM battles appear to confirm this. And fact remains Minipulsers are just better if the range drop to 500 isn't an issue, which it shouldn't be for fast High Tech ships.
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MINING BLASTER
It pounces on armor! On autofire it preserves charges vs shields, but will unload a barrage as soon as the enemy drops its shields. And that barrage HURTS. I can totally see this being a more flux-friendly alternative to a Heavy Blaster. Very impressive. And seeing another use for Expanded Magazines is nice too. Particularly now that Burst PD is fixed to be efficient with Expanded Magazines as well. My new standard weapon loadout for High Tech may very well be Burst PD + 1 Mining Blaster + Pulse Lasers now.
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BURST PD / HEAVY BURST LASER
Speaking of Burst PD: I love how it conserves its charges for missiles and fighters, not wasting them on the shields of enemy ships.
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IR AUTOLANCE
The perfect anti-fighter weapon. As long as enemy fighters come 2 wings at a time. Because after that the charges have run out and the sustained DPS is TERRIBLE. Expanded Magazines is an absolute must-have for this. At least 8 OP per Autolance isn't too expensive, so you can afford the Magazines if you have 2 or 3+ Autolances.

This weapons 100% feels like it was designed for Midline ships, which I guess it was so that works out.

Also a very good weapon for killing a lone Frigate attempting to flank you. Fire a couple Sabots to drop the shields and then IR Autolance it to death. And it might be the most reliable way to kill unshielded pirate Hounds. Again, Expanded Magazines is absolutely required to make Frigate-sniping work.

That's what this is, isn't it: the perfect anti-Pirate weapon. Kills those Hounds, Cerberi, Mudskipper Mk.IIs and Buffalo Mk.IIs at long range without hassle.

Addendum: These comments were based on SIM battles with an Eagle with 3 Autolances. The Autolance definitely benefits from being used in numbers, because the burst capacity of a single Autolance is underwhelming. Oh, and I suppose the Point Defense skill will be good for the +50% damage to fighters. Should make a noticeable difference.
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GIGACANNON
This thing is surprisingly light on flux usage. Reminiscent of a Hellbore Cannon. How is this thing going to compete with the Plasma Cannon though? Large Energy mounts are scarce and ships that have them generally can afford the flux cost of a few Plasma Cannons. And Plasma Cannons are good enough armor-crackers for the majority of targets, so why bother adding a Gigacannon? Paragon may be one good candidate. I tested Paragon with 2x turreted Plasma Cannon, 2x Gigacannon in the front hardpoints, 2x Heavy Needlers in the universals and 2x Graviton Beams in the front mediums. It feels like a good fit in terms of total flux/sec, and it certainly performs.

Aside from Paragon though, who is going to use a Gigacannon effectively? Champion? Champion can afford the flux cost of a Tachyon Lance so I don't see the Gigacannon being used on it. The Gigacannon is definitely a very niche weapon.
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GORGON DEM SRM
An Energy damage missile. That would make it an opener if it weren't soft-flux damage. Still, a large enough volley could overwhelm the shields on a Frigate and kill it outright. Sure enough: an Eradicator with 5 Gorgons can alpha-strike the SIM Lasher with 2x5 missiles. And with 4 capacity a piece it can then do it again, even without EMR. And even the Dev SIM Tempest dies easily to 3x5 Gorgons. Next I tried the Hammerhead, which was fried with 4x5 missiles.

There should be obvious synergy with Sabots here, so let's try 2x Sabots + 3x Gorgons on the Eradicator. OK, turns out enemy AI is quite willing to armor-tank the Sabots, but equipping a single Mauler solves that. Result: there is actually very little synergy. You still need to expend half your Gorgons to kill a Hammerhead. Moreover, if you overload an enemy ship then you might as well be using Harpoons or Atropos.

So yeah the strike potential of Gorgons is very real, if you use them en masse or against small targets.
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GORGON SRM POD
Like the SRM, but bigger and better? Actually no, because with 10 second refire delay and a burst size of only 2 it is more difficult to achieve a large enough volley. Let's take a Legion to experiment with because I like the Legion and 5 medium missiles is quite good. A volley of 2x5 Gorgons is large enough to kill a Lasher or Tempest. And the ammo capacity is great: 12 volleys with EMR. You can keep dropping Frigates left and right for a while. Next I tried the Hammerhead again. And while a single volley isn't enough to fry it, then 2nd volley actually comes quickly enough to finish the job.

So is there a weakness? Yes - good point defense. Individual Gorgons are quite fragile, and Flak in particular will chew them up easily. SIM Assault Enforcer for example holds them off quite well. The claim in the description that it "initiates beyond the range of the heaviest expected PD coverage" is either a flat-out lie or written by someone with very conservative expectations.

Also, Phase Skimmer on e.g. the Medusa is a very effective defense against DEMs because they don't retarget after going off.

My bottom line: Gorgons are more dangerous to Frigates and light Destroyers than Harpoons, Atropos or Locusts ever were. And they don't even need ECCM for that.
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GAZER DEM SRM
Very good ammo capacity at 6, with 10 second refire delay. That means Gazers remain available for longer and against more targets than most other small missiles, which is great. At first I was worried that these long-lasting DEMs might struggle to stay on target, however the missiles continue to maneuver after their beam starts, keeping it nicely in range. Even against Frigates.

So forget about pairing Gorgons with Sabots - pairing them with Gazers looks more promising! On the other hand, Gazers feel like they pair well with continuous-fire HE weapons like the HIL, or simply Heavy Mortars. Or, indeed, Mining Blasters. Weapons like Maulers and Hellbore are too bursty.
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GAZER SRM POD
Same as the small mount version, really. A good amount of ammo and a sensible burst size of 2. A little bit like the Kinetic variant of Annihilator Pods as a pressure weapon. The refire delay of 10 seconds is such that a 2nd volley starts beaming as soon as the 1st volley stops so the pressure is nicely continuous.

So I reckon the choice between using Gazers or Gorgons comes down to what your targets are. Against smaller ships the Gorgons look better, in combination with hard-flux Kinetic guns, while against larger ships I would choose Gazers paired with HE guns.

Gazers have a listed range of only 1200, however their beam also has quite some range so you can actually fire the Gazers effectively from more than 1200 units away. But of course autofire and the AI won't do that. Guns on capital ships can have quite a bit more than 1200 range so this does come up. It means aggressive AI behavior - be it from Aggressive AI or Eliminate orders - will come in handy here to close that range gap and bring the Gazers in autofire range.
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DRAGONFIRE DEM TORPEDO
Two ammo for twelve OP. That better be a hell of a munition. So 3000 soft Energy damage... That's quite a bit less than a Reaper. But it supposedly makes up for that with tracking ability and being less susceptible to PD. Well, let's test it!

OK so the graphics are definitely cool which is worth something. These things are also definitely underwhelming against shielded targets, unless used in large enough numbers. Notably, as with the Gorgons claim, the Dragonfire's claim of bypassing PD is not entirely accurate. Cruisers and especially Capitals with Flak can and will shoot down Dragonfires. SIM Onslaught in particular will just make an entire volley of Dragonfires disappear.

Fact remains though: a Legion firing a volley of 5 Dragonfires can just instantly delete a Hammerhead. Or any other Destroyer, except the Medusa which lives thanks to Phase Skimmer. That's a pretty powerful ability, and there is very little defense against it. Although the missiles are kinda slow, so backing away immediately might save you.

The refire delay of 5 seconds is also short enough that you can stack volleys on a target quit effectively. The abovementioned Legion with EMR can carry 5x4 Dragonfires, enough to delete SIM Eagle or even SIM Dominator, and nearly enough to kill SIM Conquest. Add a bit of hard-flux pressure from equipping actual guns, and the Legion can just Burn Drive up to the Conquest, drop 4 volleys of Dragonfires and kill the Conquest in the space of 30 seconds. Its really the short refire delay that lets you do that.

And you don't even need to rely on the Dragonfires alone: combined with Kinetic guns they are even better. Build up some hard flux on the target, launch a volley of Dragonfires. The enemy AI sees them coming and will refuse to drop shields, very reliably causing an overload under the Kinetic fire. And then the Dragonfires hit. Said Legion can delete like 3-4 Cruisers in a row with this tactic.

Dragonfires are dangerous...
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DRAGONFIRE TORPEDO POD
OK I was genuinely expecting this to be burst size 2. But it is single shot, and to add insult to injury it has a longer refire delay than the medium mount version. It literally just has 2.5x the ammo capacity for 2.5x the OP cost. I mean, how is this not outclassed by the Hurricane?
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JACKHAMMER
It's a medium sized Hammer Barrage! That doesn't fire in a spread pattern! The ammo capacity is atrocious though at just two bursts. At least at 8 OP you kinda get what you pay for. Let's call it thematically appropriate.
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HYDRA MDEM LAUNCHER
The final DEM. A DEM version of the Hurricane. With 1 fewer submunition and a different damage type. Similar spreadfire pattern, similar benefit from ECCM by the looks of it. Best I can tell, this is like a large mount version of the Gorgon. It even has the same refire delay. A Frigate killing weapon. Although it really does need ECCM to reliably catch Frigates.

So where a base Legion with 5 Gorgon pods can kill a Lasher in 1 volley and has (with EMR) 12 volleys, a Legion (XIV) with two Hydras needs 2 volleys to kill a Lasher, but has 30 ammo meaning 15 Lashers. And that 2nd volley is overkill.

So I have two complaints about the Hydra. First, the submunitions do not hit the target simultaneously, which gives time for soft flux to dissipate and thus reduces effectiveness against shields. Second, while the first-stage Hydra has the same speed as Gorgons, the submunitions are noticeably slower, which makes them less capable of hitting fast Frigates.

And anti-Frigate duty is definitely what Hydras are for. I mean, with a hit strength of 500 Energy damage coming from multiple angles you aren't going to effectively punch through the better-armored Destroyers. Keep in mind this is less than the hit strength of Gorgons at 800. And Hurricanes with ECCM can hit Destroyers well enough, and with HE damage and more focused targeting will hurt more.

So Hydras are cute and they have good ammo and the OP cost of 20 is cheap enough to make tacking on ECCM not unreasonable. But the damage potential is a bit underwhelming. Definitely more of a support weapon than an assault weapon.

And of course the AI will happily shoot at the first unfluxed enemy it spots at maximum range, for little to no effect.
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PILUM LRM CATAPULT
I love Pilums. Always have, and especially in 0.95 where they actually became good. For double the OP cost the Catapult launches double the Pilums, but as a bonus it has a shorter refire delay and regenerates ammo significantly faster. The downside is that the initial ammo lasts only half as long.

It's just a solid weapon.
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I might do the new ships next.
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Doctorhealsgood

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #941 on: May 14, 2023, 01:32:31 AM »

I heard that the gigacannon goes pretty well on a sunder.
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Grievous69

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #942 on: May 14, 2023, 01:34:39 AM »

How is medium Dragonfire strong? You have just 2 shots, that's 4 with EMR... Sure it's homing but that barely makes an impact in fights unless your ship has 3-4 of these. And even then I see myself using other choices which will last longer than 2 minutes into a battle.
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CapnHector

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #943 on: May 14, 2023, 01:37:53 AM »

Due to the outpouring of emotion observed in this thread, I made a support badge for everybody who wants to observe a period of mourning for the 4 missile slot Pegasus. RIP!
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Lucky33

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #944 on: May 14, 2023, 01:46:38 AM »

I dunno how that 4 LMM Pegasus came into existence in the first place. But since the scrapping of it and forgetting that it was is not an option can we just use the original version as an non-recoverable boss ship? And scrap the current version because, sorry, but 50 point superbattleship is supposed to have some character. And there is none.
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