Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

Pages: 1 ... 10 11 [12] 13 14 ... 99

Author Topic: Starsector 0.96a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 319143 times)

SafariJohn

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3010
    • View Profile
Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #165 on: February 03, 2023, 07:19:05 PM »

Why not try the Legion with its buffs instead of calling for nerfs before it even out the door? The Legion is a Hegemony ship is it not? It and the Onslaught need to stand tall as two big reasons why the Hegemony is still in power.

I do not see any call for nerfing Legion. Only for not buffing the already strong Legion XIV.
Logged

FooF

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1378
    • View Profile
Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #166 on: February 03, 2023, 07:20:31 PM »

All the Legion XIV is going to do with the extra OP us add more hullmods. Relative to the Onslaught, it is much less able to pack on the defensive buffs to make it a monster. It is strong, no doubt, but I can do thinks with an Onslaught that a Legion couldn’t begin to dream of, mostly because of OP shortages. They cost the same DP so of the two, the Legion needs more help.
Logged

Dri

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1403
    • View Profile
Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #167 on: February 03, 2023, 07:26:23 PM »

Why not try the Legion with its buffs instead of calling for nerfs before it even out the door? The Legion is a Hegemony ship is it not? It and the Onslaught need to stand tall as two big reasons why the Hegemony is still in power.

I do not see any call for nerfing Legion. Only for not buffing the already strong Legion XIV.
The XIV always have more OP than the base. By not giving the XIV its additional OP, that's a nerf to that variant.
Logged

Fartbox Wanderer

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 6
    • View Profile
Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #168 on: February 03, 2023, 07:33:31 PM »

Players will always find ways to exploit game mechanics, and I do understand it's generally difficult to balance player-piloted phase ships, but can anything reasonably be done to make this sort of loadout less of a fleet deleter? I don't know what to suggest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ifxXOTpozg
« Last Edit: February 03, 2023, 07:37:28 PM by Fartbox Wanderer »
Logged

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 12118
    • View Profile
Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #169 on: February 03, 2023, 07:42:57 PM »

If the s-mod changes mean less expensive hullmods get stamped for s-modding, Legion (and other ships) may not get the full OP they are used to.  Currently, low tech capitals get Heavy Armor and EMR stamped.  If that ends up being not so great post-release, they will effectively lose OP.
Logged

Amazigh

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 284
    • View Profile
Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #170 on: February 03, 2023, 08:00:43 PM »

Players will always find ways to exploit game mechanics, and I do understand it's generally difficult to balance player-piloted phase ships, but can anything reasonably be done to make this sort of loadout less of a fleet deleter? I don't know what to suggest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ifxXOTpozg
You're using sim, so the enemy ships have no officers. (i also think ships might behave a little bit differently in sim than  they would in normal battles)
You have a level 31 officer in the ship.
You're using a bunch of the (D) variants, which are worse than standard variants.
In both tests only 3 of the deployed ships have the ability to shield their rears.
Most if not all of the ships have little-no rear facing weapons that are not PD.
You have no carrier representation in either test.

All told, this is quite the biased example.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2023, 08:02:53 PM by Amazigh »
Logged

Fartbox Wanderer

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 6
    • View Profile
Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #171 on: February 03, 2023, 08:26:21 PM »

You're using sim, so the enemy ships have no officers. (i also think ships might behave a little bit differently in sim than  they would in normal battles)
You have a level 31 officer in the ship.
You're using a bunch of the (D) variants, which are worse than standard variants.
In both tests only 3 of the deployed ships have the ability to shield their rears.
Most if not all of the ships have little-no rear facing weapons that are not PD.
You have no carrier representation in either test.

All told, this is quite the biased example.
I've raised my concern with this issue in a few places and this is always the sort of reply I get... "It's not an problem because under specific circumstances that rarely occur, it might be a little less effective."
- Level 31 officer: irrelevant; only a handful of skills really benefit this loadout
- Irrelevant; campaign ships commonly have d-mods and those present in this battle didn't determine the outcome
- Most ships don't have their rear protected. Omni shield is helpful but with a few extra shots, skillful piloting, or the benefit of additional ships in your fleet acting as distractions, they're still easily bypassed.
- Few ships have rear-facing weapons that aren't PD, fewer still could inflict meaningful damage in the fraction of a second before they're knocked out
- Fighters are easily kited and outrun, they're totally irrelevant to this strategy and the presence of carriers would only make it easier since their hulls are more fragile

This loadout or something very close to it is doable with a captain fresh out of the tutorial system (on normal difficulty) and works easily during the campaign against virtually any opposing fleet. This loadout doesn't care if the enemy has an entire fleet of optimally-chosen ships, they're all loaded with elite officers, the planets align... Please try it in campaign before you reply again. Respec your captain, even assign no skill points if you really want, give every reasonable benefit to the AI, see how it goes. If you're a half-decent pilot, the worst thing that's going to happen is you'll destroy or cripple a bunch of ships before being forced to retreat for lack of ammo. No other ship/loadout I've seen does this so safely and reliably.

If you can see the chaos caused by *one* lone 8DP ship, imagine that one ship accompanied by a proper fleet... and you're saying the video is an example biased in favor of the player? For real? 8 deployment points versus 200, and the one that's getting a raw deal here is the AI? Not the player, with 29 endgame ships they're choosing not to deploy?

Even though I consider myself reasonably skilled at this game, I'd probably still have a rough time fighting 100 DP vs 200 DP under a normal scenario, but here's a fight of 8DP vs 200DP, and it's a one-sided slaughter. Possible mitigating factors are irrelevant. I'm not trying to ruin anyone's fun with phase ships, I love phase ships. Just hoping the developers will look at this sort of scenario and consider if there's anything that can be done to make such alpha-strike phase loadouts a little less overpowered. In my recent playthrough I found a perfect-condition Shade at the very first post-tutorial store I went to, and it was disheartening to know I could effectively win the game by purchasing it and a few AM blasters. When I have to consciously choose not to "cheat" in a game, it's something I think could be worth looking at.

It's been a while since I played, I just saw that a new patch might be coming out soon and decided it would be a good time to bring this up. I'm not sure what would be a good change that wouldn't be too much of a nerf. I think Shade's a cool ship, and I think it should still be usable in this sort of role, but it shouldn't be this sort of game-ending dreadnaught you can buy 10 minutes after starting the game. Every other sort of "optimal build" I've seen people suggest still requires a high degree of skill to fully exploit, while an assblasting Shade is virtually unkillable in even moderately-skilled hands.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2023, 09:28:46 PM by Fartbox Wanderer »
Logged

Cruacious

  • Lieutenant
  • **
  • Posts: 72
    • View Profile
Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #172 on: February 03, 2023, 09:38:38 PM »

I've read my way through the patch notes and I generally like the ideas proposed in the coming patch. Frankly, adding new music and a bunch of side story quests is the breathe of fresh air I have been wanting as a longtime player of the game. I'm really looking forward to seeing how the new weapons perform as well as I, too, have a love of insanely overbuilt mega-weapons that are just too powerful for their own good.

Now, I have an idea and a personal request combined for something to spice up exploration. Ruined world lore bits. Basically, when tech mining and to a far lesser extent doing your initial salvaging pass of a world with ruins on it, I think some generic lore bits about what kind of colony or outpost was there and what happened to it would be a fascinating way to add depth to the ruined sector and give you more of a feel of just how BAD things got post-collapse. For a while, at least. Doesn't have to be colony specific (although having special ruined colonies with special lore attached to them spawn would also be fun). Just a thought and my two cents.
Logged

Amazigh

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 284
    • View Profile
Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #173 on: February 03, 2023, 09:50:17 PM »

"It's not an issue because under specific circumstances that rarely occur, it might be a little less effective."
It's the opposite case, you're the one showing highly specific circumstances that would never really occur in normal combat.
Show the same level of effect against a real fleet with a normal level officer (and not just some pirate trash fleet) and i'll happily agree with you. Until then, i'll remain doubtful.
Logged

Hiruma Kai

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 878
    • View Profile
Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #174 on: February 03, 2023, 10:21:41 PM »

Respec your captain, assign no skill points, give every reasonable benefit to the AI.

I don't believe you can do this well in a Shade against that kind of opposition with no skill points assigned right at the beginning of the game.  Believe me, I've tried.  With support ships you can leverage phase frigates much more, but solo you can't do it without significant skill investment.  Then again, with support ships, you can make most fast and heavily armed ships work well.

There are huge stat disparities between zero skills and that setup.  Base speed at 0-flux in phase is only 165 without skills or hullmods, not 285.  Max flux capacity is 5100 (2500+2000+600=5100).  You literally can spend at most 4 seconds in phase before you can only fire 2 antimatter blasters.  16 seconds until you can only fire 1, reducing your damage by 66% per pass.  Considering it took around 10 seconds to cross starting at speed 285, it'll take about 17 seconds starting at 165.   You get 180 seconds of peak performance time, not 480.  You'll get of order 10 passes and thus around 10-20 individual anti-matter shots off in a similar setup with no skills.

Try it.  Simply go to the Ambush mission from the mission selection, pick the shade, outfit as you see fit (which isn't going to be anywhere near the stats of that ship singe you lack skills and s-mods), and you'll find you can't even cross the pile of enemy ships and still do anything significant with your flux levels so high.

At a bare minimum you need to be level 3 to grab Phase Coil Tuning (along with Energy Weapon Mastery along the way) which makes this only begin to be conceivable, but even then the raw stats aren't there yet to support this kind of fight.  You need Wolf Pack Tactics, Crew Training and Combat Endurance to get CR to 100% and PPT up.  Flux Regulation is a huge jump in flux capacity (another 1250), so you're sitting at around level 7 before you can even begin to pull this off regularly against such a sim composition, or before I'd be willing to risk an iron man run on it against similar opposition.  And the opposition is restricted to a limited sub-set of ships which lacks omni-shields and fighters (especially Xyphos).  Also most capitals are out, since you need more range to reliably avoid the ship's explosion, at the very least ITU or IPDAI + ePD.  If you can time it just right, you can avoid it with base 400 range and flying away but it's really hard.

If you can see the chaos caused by *one* lone 8DP ship, imagine that one ship accompanied by a proper fleet... and you're saying the video is an example biased in favor of the player? For real? 8 deployment points versus 200, and the one that's getting a raw deal here is the AI? Not the player, with 29 endgame ships they're choosing not to deploy?

One 8 DP ship with the player at the helm, which is a very big difference from just an 8 DP ship.  You only get one player piloted ship at a time, at which point, the DP cost is almost meaningless.  8 DP versus 30 DP is only a 10% swing in DP for a full 240 DP deployment which gets a shrug from me.  1 extra cruiser isn't going to make or break most of my fights.  As for 200 DP, I'd be impressed if you could reliably succeed against a mere 60 DP if that 60 DP were the sim Paragon.  Actually, show me a video of a Shade outfit like in that video you linked, dealing with a pair of sim Omens, a mere 12 DP, and I will also be impressed.

But the biggest reason I don't have an issue with this is because being at the helm of an incredible 8 DP ship means the player isn't at the helm of a bigger and more impactful ship, like say an Onslaught, Legion, Odyssey, or Conquest, or even a Neural Linked Radiant, which all have vastly more DPS.  In an optimized end game fleet, a good player with a good capital can do 30-40% of the entire fleet's damage/kills.  A lone shade isn't going to be putting out that much hull damage that fast, given it basically has to swing through, fire, back off, vent, and then come back at them.  I'd be curious what percent damage or percent kills you could get in a Shade against an Ordo or two.

Are phase frigates good in skilled players hands?  Yes.  Are they game breaking?  Shrug?  Given by the point you can do crazy things in them, you could be beating the exact same forces with a more traditional fleet?  An early Medusa or Fury, also backed by a small support fleet, can also do extremely well.  Personally, I don't consider 100 DP vs 200 DP particularly hard on the campaign layer, especially if I've got a level 10 or higher character behind it.  I've done 45 DP (Odyssey) against 370 DP (300k Persean bounty) without trouble.  Level 15, but no s-mods.  So you certainly don't need a phase ship to solo disproportionate fleets.

Personally, I appreciate the fact that player piloted phase ships expand the number of styles of play available.
Logged

Sarissofoi

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 405
    • View Profile
Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #175 on: February 03, 2023, 10:50:09 PM »

Just wanted to say that I like buff to Legion and the new Sarissa fighters.
I bet they will be the best fighters ever and not because they have cool name(which they have of course, very cool name).

Grievous69

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2980
    • View Profile
Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #176 on: February 04, 2023, 12:10:26 AM »

Man those are some basic Fury builds (which are great, even more so for player ships, I just got bored of the old HB + Sabots combo) and I really think it's a possible to make a more unique build of a very similar performance.

Last thing that I really liked and worked well vs various opponents is Ion Pulser + Phase Lance, then pick a missile of your choice (I'd use Breaches if AI wasn't scared to fire them), AM Blaster and IR Pulse Laser in those 2 smalls that can fire forward. Two Burst PDs in the back mounts and Front shield conversion, max vents and rest into caps. I like this build since it doesn't require many hullmods. Obviously when you invest story points you can get ITU and something else.

The reason why I'm so full of myself or persistent on this topic because it isn't really about the builds. I've tried probably 6 different setups in campaign, and honestly everything works okay. You can't really screw up the ship unless you go full beam poke I guess. Likewise you can't make something broken since the ship is limited by a couple of factors (not to say it needs improvement in those). Each and every time I was disappointed with it wasn't because my build wasn't performing as it should. It was always the ship itself just having unfortunate Plasma Burn and not knowing when to back out and when to apply pressure.

Like I said, it works better for Shrike and Odyssey. Fury either chases a 5 DP ship or suicides, being a distraction at best. My conclusion is that it is somehow even more of a flagship bait ship than Aurora, which I also consider to be disappointing with AI.

Also also, HB builds will be slightly weaker since everything else seems to be buffed. I expect some nasty torpedo builds in the future  8)
Logged
Please don't take me too seriously.

gG_pilot

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 225
    • View Profile
Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #177 on: February 04, 2023, 12:22:52 AM »

I am missing skill  update, will it come ?
Hmm, I'm not sure what you mean.
Support doctrine
https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=25923.0

Energy Weapon Mastery
Energy Weapon Mastery
(for colour police - Which shade of blue is reserved by moderators ?)
https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=25832.0

There are also  very weak skills which needs  buff or polishing  like:
All shield shunt (armor tanking skills) becouse Shield Shnt hullmode is suboptimal in any combat situation even with full specced pilot. Especially  Damage Control Elite  -  total waste of  point.

Regarding Pilots&skills :
Pilots need an option how to be more flexible and change their skills faster. For example, let pilots acquire skill points even after their max level is reached (same as main character),  those extra points can be used to swap skill for other skill (same as main character). So when pilot reach the max level he can still evolve. Adapt to new challenges.  Player can keep pilots whole game, and retrain to new needs, rather than:" fire old >> hire new "mechanic. (well, personally I  use edit save because of no support in game)

« Last Edit: February 04, 2023, 12:40:35 AM by gG_pilot »
Logged

Vanshilar

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 585
    • View Profile
Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #178 on: February 04, 2023, 01:28:32 AM »

I've raised my concern with this issue in a few places and this is always the sort of reply I get... "It's not an problem because under specific circumstances that rarely occur, it might be a little less effective."

It's more that the player in a fast ship (of which phase ships definitely apply) can do a lot of things to the AI that the AI doesn't know how to effectively counter. A player-piloted LP Brawler can do the same thing to the same 200 DP's worth of ships in sim too, for example, and actually kill the entire fleet instead of running out of ammo. The player is simply much better at exploiting opportunities and proper positioning than the AI, especially in a fast ship, especially against a bunch of non-officered, easy ships. Thus a player soloing a sim fleet isn't really representative of fleet-on-fleet combat, and doesn't really scale well to the more difficult fleets encountered in the campaign once the player gets out of the early game.
Logged

Doctorhealsgood

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 516
    • View Profile
Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #179 on: February 04, 2023, 02:25:33 AM »

What would your current thoughts be on reducing the OP on the Legion XIV back to what it currently is? I ask because currently, though this is subject to change depending on the new caps, the Legion XIV is considered one of the stronger capitals largely because, unlike its base counterpart, its a capable long range support with its two large missiles and 4 fighter bays while also capable of being a strong front-liner with its tougher armor and 5 medium ballistics for only 40 DP and my main concern is that between the increased number and types of missiles and the +40 OP the XIV Legion has the potential to become even more oppressive compared to its peers. I'd understand if you'd not want to due to Legion XIV's rarity, because its only available to the player, and because it would be weird to not have XIV be a straight upgrade to its non-XIV version, but to that third I'd argue that its weird that the weapon mounts are different compared to its base version in the first place and the lower OP could just be the tradeoff of the conversion to Large missiles over ballistics from base.
XIV legion and regular legion get the same buff though?
Logged
Quote from: Doctorhealsgood
Sometimes i feel like my brain has been hit by salamanders not gonna lie.
Pages: 1 ... 10 11 [12] 13 14 ... 99