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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Starsector 0.96a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 319264 times)

Grievous69

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #135 on: February 03, 2023, 08:58:18 AM »

Well yeah playstyles are a big thing and some ships just won't match with some players. But doesn't Champion have meh campaign stats? With Apogee you have great sensors, cargo and fuel capacity.

Also that dealer thing was an obvious joke (incredibly tame), last time I checked those were legal here. Smh everything being called ad-hominem these days it barely has a meaning. Next time I'll use big red letters like gG_pilot to explain what the joke is.

EDIT: Forgot to type obligatory "speedcreep" comment to Thaago's post haha. It's funny how a 60 speed cruiser is considered slow since so many ships now get fancy movement systems.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2023, 09:00:08 AM by Grievous69 »
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Doctorhealsgood

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #136 on: February 03, 2023, 09:06:36 AM »

The shield shunt S-Mod effect makes me think that perhaps the list of the current effects could be posted? Maybe there are more cases of S-Mods that have become only good IF S-modded instead of being buffed to be worth using normally and the S-Mod being a pretty nice extra.
It could just be an outlier for all i know but better safe than sorry yes?
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Sometimes i feel like my brain has been hit by salamanders not gonna lie.

Voyager I

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #137 on: February 03, 2023, 09:54:55 AM »

When one of your jokes misses and receives gentle correction:

DO
Say "My bad, I didn't mean to be insulting." and allow the conversation to move on.

DO NOT
Say "Get over it snowflake, I didn't know jokes were illegal now." while planting your flag on the hilltop.
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Darkin

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #138 on: February 03, 2023, 10:19:15 AM »

This would be awesome!
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gG_pilot

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #139 on: February 03, 2023, 10:24:21 AM »

This is what I do not want to see/kind of feared for s-mods.  Probably makes BotB even more important.

Shield Shunt (after the nerf to 15%) was weak to being with, and with s-mod making it stronger, it will likely be an automatic s-mod for would-be shunted ships.  Just give Shield Shunt the full bonus and raise the OP cost to ITU levels.
The side effect of hulmods in s-mode is sick idea in general and very easy can slip into unpredictable results.  Like Shield shunt now.

Buff up Shield Shunt to  be better than shields is an option, however ... it could be turned into  pirate-version-safety-override. Low maintenance cost (hull repair & CR recover use metal plates instead of Supply boxes), quick to repair (out of combat bonus to gain CR per day), fast ship (bonus + 10% speed). Not powerful in long fight, but dirt cheap to run. Also add  a new type of attack with shunted ship  Ramming could be fun. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramming
Also change price to 1/2/2/3 would help add more umpf to assault power.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2023, 10:34:37 AM by gG_pilot »
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itBeABruhMoment

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #140 on: February 03, 2023, 10:38:46 AM »

I modded the ship balance changes into the game if anyone wants to try them. The id's of the rebalanced ships are the ids of the regular ship with "new_" added to the front (ie. new_hyperion)

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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #141 on: February 03, 2023, 11:12:49 AM »

I often encounter it because I give an order, tab out of the map (muscle memory), then realize I missed something and have to use another command point even though it has been less than a second or I never even unpaused. It is my main frustration with the CP mechanic.

Just made a note to take a look and maybe try it/see how it feels. (Erm: "it" being "not closing the comm frequency".)


add portraits that have moustaches so I can feel like a 18th century admiral and I will be happy.

:-|D  (the | is meant to be a moustache, if that's not clear.)


I would like more details about this.

And I would like to share more, but I'll restrain myself!



While Pirate Falcon is on the strongish side at 20 DP, if that level already needs a nerf Gryphon/Monitor/LP Brawler could definitely take a bit of a beating IMO.
(LP Brawler going up to 6 DP seems smallish but might be enough)

Honestly, the Gryphon and especially the Monitor could probably all stand to cost a little more DP. Not a huge amount, but some.


Radar? You mean that combat radar? But it's in the combat engine, not the campaign layer...
What I referred to is the UI like the left corner credits

There was a campaign one at some point. I'm not sure if it still exists.


I'm also looking forward to the lore expansion of the Luddic Church

(Then this is certainly the update for you!)


Ah, so shield upkeep is actually defined as fraction of flux dissipation, got it.

Yep! Ahh, your question makes sense now, since it's not presented like that to the player.



You've already got diminishing returns built into fighter spam with the new soft cap on skills and the Drover has been very far from good, so I don't feel like it's on the edge of overtaking the game again. It's definitely more powerful than the Condor, sure, but is it really 1.5 Condors?

Hmm, this gives me an idea for an angle to take on testing it - see how it does in a simular configuration, 2vs3. Of course not the end-all of tests and not reflective of many different uses, but may be interesting to see regardless. E.G. if all-interceptor builds on all sides result in Drovers winning somehow, that'd be a pretty solid (and surprising) indicator they *are*.


Oh wow I genuinely forgot Neutrino Detector exists after multiple experiences with how unreliable it is (no offense btw) so I don't bother bringing Violatiles anymore, guess I'll give it another try with an easily accessible supply for it, thanks guys  ;D

Haha! None taken :)


And I'll still keep saying Fury is overcosted, especially with AI that dies more often with it than with frigates. I don't see it getting stronger than it currently is so the only path to redemption is having its DP cost down to 18 or so.

I have a note to look at it again.


EDIT: I forgot to comment on the DP costs, wow I would've never guessed only 50 DP for a capital that seems so insane. 30 DP for Apex makes sense now that I looked back on the screenshot. It has a ton of firepower plus free PD with Terminator drones.

The Pegasus may well be undercosted; we'll see. It does tend to lose to the Paragon 1v1, depending on fit, anyway - and it only has mediums for non-missile firepower.


Will any of the new mission grant Hypercognition (or new special skills) as rewards?
Has Rugged Construction been added to every Derelict?
All derelicts already have rugged construction far as i know.

Ah! THat would explain how it didn't end up in the notes, I was confused for a minute :)


A likely unpopular opinion, but I wish the Fury never moved off its 15 DP cost and was balanced around that niche. High Tech needs its own Light Cruise and the Fury is well beyond the Falcon, in my book. Personally, there are too many 20 DP Cruisers out there vying for the same spot.
I'd prefer that over the current situation. Just make it cheaper and less tanky. Like you said, there's a spot for a cruiser that's not expensive. No need to try and make Aurora-lite.
Just looking at the distribution DP costs for ships which meet a hypothetical high tech doctrine: fast, maneuverability System, shield tank, primary energy weapons:

Shrike 8 DP
Medusa 12 DP
Hyperion 15 DP
Fury 20 DP or 15 DP
Aurora 30 DP
Odyssey 45 DP

I certainly think the Fury looks better at the 20 DP in that lineup, given you've already got the Medusa at 12 DP and the Hyperion at 15 DP.  I'd much rather see the Fury balanced at the 20 DP level as that looks like an easier to distinguish progression.   Dropping it to 15 DP means competing in the Medusa and Hyperion space, which would feel really overcrowded to be honest.  Then there's nothing in that doctrine between 15 DP to 30 DP, which feels like a pretty big gap.

There is also the problem that the Eagle and to a lesser extent the Falcon design kind of fight itself.  Fury's design actually works together (and synergizes strongly with safety overrides, but that's a separate point).  To get to 15 DP, you'd essentially have to make it barely stronger than a Medusa, and on par with the Hyperion, the latter of which is already a fast, shield tanking, 3 medium mount, maneuverability system using ship.  For example, Medusa and Hyperion already have 600 flux dissipation max, compared to the Falcon's 700, as well as 16,667 max effective shield capacity compared to the Falcon's  max capacity of 16,250.

Or in other words, the high tech doctrine simply uses high end destroyers and frigates to fill the light cruiser niche better than a midline light cruiser.  Keep in mind, non-beam energy weapons (the bread and butter of a Fury) don't get as much benefit from a Dedicated Targeting Core as a ballistics ship would, so I don't see a need for a 15 DP high tech doctrine ship in the cruiser format.  I'll also note, Heavy blasters will cover a multitude of sins in terms of making up for DPS with only a few mounts.  If people feel the Fury isn't worth DP, then I'd rather see it buffed than drop down to the DP range of two other already existing high tech doctrine ships.

Hmm. Lots of interesting thoughts here, thank you!


I am missing skill  update, will it come ?

Hmm, I'm not sure what you mean.



My question to Alex is if the maximum target leading is basic or s-mod/elite only?

Basic.


Oh right I forgot to ask another thing, is the LP Manticore also 12 DP? Because that franky seems busted for a faction that's already harder than every other faction in the game (excluding exploration stuff ofc).

Yeah it's 12 DP. I mean, large missile slot, yes, but it's not a very tanky ship and it has built-in SO so it's kind of an awkward one. Though, yeah, Hammer Barrage plus a bunch of machine guns...


Maybe there are more cases of S-Mods that have become only good IF S-modded instead of being buffed to be worth using normally and the S-Mod being a pretty nice extra.
It could just be an outlier for all i know but better safe than sorry yes?

Shield shunt is very cheap so it's on a fairly short list of hullmods whose build-in effect is quite high (but still aligns with the base effect, either in stats or at least in spirit.)
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Grievous69

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #142 on: February 03, 2023, 11:17:39 AM »

Falcon(P) step aside, there's a new sheriff in town: Pather Manticore.

No joke I'm going to be so scared early game not to get jumped by Pathers.
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Draba

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #143 on: February 03, 2023, 11:28:03 AM »

Oh right I forgot to ask another thing, is the LP Manticore also 12 DP? Because that franky seems busted for a faction that's already harder than every other faction in the game (excluding exploration stuff ofc).

Yeah it's 12 DP. I mean, large missile slot, yes, but it's not a very tanky ship and it has built-in SO so it's kind of an awkward one. Though, yeah, Hammer Barrage plus a bunch of machine guns...

Not even hammers:
LP manticore running around with SO, cyclone and double HMG :)
Improved reaper looks nastier, with officer skipping racks is an option and there'll still be OP to spare.
Squall damage going up and that were the 2 things that looked far out of line when first reading the notes.
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Grievous69

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #144 on: February 03, 2023, 11:30:52 AM »

Squall damage remained the same, it got fixed (typo I guess). The part of the damage is just scripted now not to ravage hull.
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Thaago

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #145 on: February 03, 2023, 11:34:26 AM »

Is the lp manticore's system still the cannister flak? It would be interesting to change that to burn drive for maximum in your face torpedo strikes! Probably objectively worse in terms of performance but also terrifying stacked on top of SO.
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #146 on: February 03, 2023, 11:53:37 AM »

I mean when you put it like that it does look nicer in that 20 DP spot. But the important part is to take a look at its role and how the ship is meant to be used. Fury is basically a bigger Shrike, not much science there. So as Shrike, it's also a fast flanker/harasser that can zoom into a battle an unleash a burst of missiles and energy weapons. Everyone here knows AI doesn't really do flanking maneuvers nor it has perfect timing to strike (also sometimes hesitant to pull off and active vent), which is why people call such ships "punch down" ships. 8 DP for a punch down ship makes sense, since frigates don't cost a lot less, only tiny less. Fury on the other hand costs 20 DP and ships which it can reliably kill are much cheaper than itself. Which is why I hate that the bloody thing occupies the same points in your fleet as Gryphon does.

You could sugarcoat this role all day long, I just don't have the need to spend 20 DP (the cost of an average cruiser) for a ship that can handle base Falcons at best.

If you're saying the Fury isn't worth 20 DP, then I'd advocate that it be buffed until it's worth 20 DP.  Dropping to 18-19 DP is another option, with or without buffs.  But I feel 15 DP is really too close to two other already existing ships with nearly the same doctrine and access to nearly the same weapons.  You can put a Medium missile (or two small missiles), a Heavy Blaster and an Ion Pulser on a Medusa, on a Hyperion, or on a Fury.

Fury is a bigger Shrike, but so is a Medusa in a sense.  Medusa ticks all the same boxes that the Shrike and Fury do. Fast flanker/harasser that can zoom into battle and unleash a burst of missiles and energy weapons.  They all have systems to get them into trouble faster, and their speeds range from 90-120.

Actually, Medusa with Railguns and ITU has the same max range as a Fury with ITU with Heavy Blasters/Pulse Lasers.  700*1.2 = 840, 600*1.4 = 840.  So the most distinguishing feature, longer range, doesn't even really apply to the more common hardflux builds.  Going farther, an IPDAI + ePD Medusa has significantly longer range than a ITU Fury, so the cruiser chassis isn't doing much for you over the destroyer chassis.

I guess maybe from my point of view, I feel "cruiser" designation or "light cruiser" or "fast cruiser" are really nebulous.  Are people arguing all light and fast cruisers should cost 14-15 DP?  Are people also arguing we should modify the non-pirate Eradicator so it is only worth 15 DP or so as well?  Why only the Fury and the Falcon?  I mean, it fills in the same gap in the low tech lineup that the Falcon fills in the midline and the Fury fills in the high tech.  Sure the Eradicator is called "fast" instead of "light", but it's got the 9 burn thing going for it.  There doesn't seem to be any argument the Eradicator should be changed and dropped down to 15 DP.

Again, if the Fury is not worth 20 DP, I would rather see it be changed and buffed such that it is worth 20 DP, rather than match drop to 15 DP since I use Medusa and Hyperions from the high tech lineup for that job, or a Falcon from the midline line up, or the (P) Eradicator from the lowtech line up.  Isn't the 12-15 DP fast cruiser line up crowded enough at 15 DP? 

It's really barren at 20 DP for fast, highly mobile ships.  What high base speed + mobility system ships clock in at 20 to 25 DP?  Eagles didn't count at speed 50 since they really didn't have the sustained high speed, and they are dropping closer to the 15 DP range anyways.  Not Champions (25 DP line holder with long range weapons/missiles), not Dominators (again 25 DP line holder with anti-capital larges ), not Apogees (18-20 DP again line holder with anti-capital larges), not Gryphons (20 DP slow missile ship), not Heron's (20 DP fast carrier), not Mora (20 DP line holder carrier brick).

So I see no problem sticking a fast, short range, highly mobile ship into the 20-25 DP band, with the Aurora sitting way up at 30 DP.

From an actual overall game ship's filling unique roles at different balance points perspective, as opposed to just naming conventions, I think the Fury should be balanced around 20 DP, not 15 DP.  If people just want to change its designation to "fast cruiser" instead of a "light cruiser" so it gets compared to the Eradicator instead of the Falcon, I'm all for that.

@Hiruma Kai

A convincing argument. I was looking at the Fury from the lens of the Cruiser line up rather than the High Tech. From that perspective, you’re right: it would bump into the Medusa, though I feel the Hyperion is sort of an outlier and not a a “mainline” ship.

However, I’d be curious how many players compare a Falcon to a Medusa to a Hyperion (I.e. across hull sizes). That’s not immediately intuitive. Or perhaps it’s better to ask, what is the most common way folks compare ships? Is it hull size, DP, burn speed, role, etc?

I’m inclined to agree with Grievous69 when comparing it against a Heron, Gryphon, Mora, Apogee or the now cheaper Eagle: is it on par with these other 20ish DP ships? Maybe it should be 18 like the Eagle.

I guess I'm advocating for buffs to the Fury then, if it really isn't worth 20 DP.  I'm saying where I would like to see the Fury end up, not necessarily where balance says it should be with its exact current stats.  I feel like the last time I looked at the balance considerations, it was working OK at 20 DP?  Certainly not over tuned, but it didn't seem that undertuned.  If it's really worth 17-8 DP now, say, I'd rather see some tweak ups to it.
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1glitchycent

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #147 on: February 03, 2023, 11:56:54 AM »

Will the Lion's Guard ships be better than their standard counterparts?
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Draba

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #148 on: February 03, 2023, 12:05:47 PM »

Squall damage remained the same, it got fixed (typo I guess). The part of the damage is just scripted now not to ravage hull.
Yeah, that was cleared up earlier so now only the builtin SO Manticore stands out :)
« Last Edit: February 03, 2023, 12:07:46 PM by Draba »
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FooF

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #149 on: February 03, 2023, 12:06:07 PM »

Will the Lion's Guard ships be better than their standard counterparts?

What have you done… (j/k, this was just beaten to death when the blog post about it dropped)

@Hiruma Kai

Fair enough. What buffs would you propose without pushing it into Aurora territory? I know this seems small in the grand scheme of things but what if one of the forward/off-center Small Energies was a Universal? Throw a Light Needler/Railgun or even a Small Missile in there and that could really change the overall composition of the ship. If the Fury had access to Kinetics or an extra missile, it would be far more efficient without necessarily adding a lot of actual damage output. (Obviously inspired by the Pirate Shrike)
« Last Edit: February 03, 2023, 12:07:48 PM by FooF »
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