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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Starsector 0.96a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 319087 times)

Doctorhealsgood

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #120 on: February 03, 2023, 05:23:27 AM »

There is a lot of stuff to try on this new version but probably the first thing i am probably gonna do is to get my hands on an Invictus and a bunch of Derelict ships with Converted hangars&Defensive targeting array as defense instead of bothering to add makeshift shields and then put it all together with Field Repairs and Derelict operations.

Ah and doing that new main story chain of course! It sounds like it is going to be a fun one.
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FooF

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #121 on: February 03, 2023, 05:28:15 AM »

A likely unpopular opinion, but I wish the Fury never moved off its 15 DP cost and was balanced around that niche. High Tech needs its own Light Cruise and the Fury is well beyond the Falcon, in my book. Personally, there are too many 20 DP Cruisers out there vying for the same spot.
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Grievous69

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #122 on: February 03, 2023, 05:44:19 AM »

A likely unpopular opinion, but I wish the Fury never moved off its 15 DP cost and was balanced around that niche. High Tech needs its own Light Cruise and the Fury is well beyond the Falcon, in my book. Personally, there are too many 20 DP Cruisers out there vying for the same spot.
I'd prefer that over the current situation. Just make it cheaper and less tanky. Like you said, there's a spot for a cruiser that's not expensive. No need to try and make Aurora-lite.
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gG_pilot

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #123 on: February 03, 2023, 05:54:42 AM »

In general  it looks good, a lot of new things,  lot of polishing include  AI.   I am missing skill  update, will it come ?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Integrated Point Defense AI:

    Cost reduced to 3/6/9/15 (was: 4/8/12/20)
    Gives abilty to ignore decoy flares and +50% damage to missiles
    Converting small weapons to PD is now the s-mod effect bonus
[/color]

Good improvement. 
" ignore decoy flares and +50% damage to missiles" sounds more of system feeature, than weapon (large  burst PD laser)
Converting small weapons to PD  is great to have as option.  Probably   best case of usage of  the new  side  effect of hulmodes. Althou I would prefer  a  system where  certain hullmodes / weapons have  alternative functionality  which  is set in the weapon fittig screen. 


Shield Shunt can be built in (and has an extra armor bonus effect when built in with a story point)
Shield  Shunt  need a buff. It is interesting  option but totaly suboptimal in  any   battle situation. I have found just one occasion, Shunted  Eradicator for 17DP as punch down fast  capture point cruiser.  Althou requirement to grow a one-trick-pony pilot with special set of skill makes is niche in the niche >>> therefore not using shield shunt anyway.
This change means, that  much needed buff of  shield shunt hullmode available only as s-smode means,  in fact no buff.
It is (probably) the worst example of the new side  effects of hullmodes where  SIDE effect is extension of the MAIN effect.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2023, 06:02:36 AM by gG_pilot »
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FooF

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #124 on: February 03, 2023, 06:06:03 AM »

I'd prefer that over the current situation. Just make it cheaper and less tanky. Like you said, there's a spot for a cruiser that's not expensive. No need to try and make Aurora-lite.

That was my first thought, too: drop the shield efficiency. I don’t think its firepower is bad for 15 DP but it is far too tough to kill. And/or reduce the shield arc to make it more vulnerable in general.
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Grievous69

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #125 on: February 03, 2023, 06:12:20 AM »

snip
Hey can you not use colours in your text? If you want to emphasize something there is a "bold" option. Or just write things in a cohesive way with clear indications on important bits.

Especially don't use blue text since that is how moderation text looks like.
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gG_pilot

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #126 on: February 03, 2023, 06:48:43 AM »

snip
Hey can you not use colours in your text? If you want to emphasize something there is a "bold" option. Or just write things in a cohesive way with clear indications on important bits.

Especially don't use blue text since that is how moderation text looks like.
I like my colors.
If you are right, then why I can use blue without moderator privilege ?
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #127 on: February 03, 2023, 07:06:25 AM »

As always, an interesting set of updates, although most of it has been teased by Alex over the months.  I am very excited to see the story missions, and can't wait to see what David and Alex have put together in those.

A likely unpopular opinion, but I wish the Fury never moved off its 15 DP cost and was balanced around that niche. High Tech needs its own Light Cruise and the Fury is well beyond the Falcon, in my book. Personally, there are too many 20 DP Cruisers out there vying for the same spot.

Just looking at the distribution DP costs for ships which meet a hypothetical high tech doctrine: fast, maneuverability System, shield tank, primary energy weapons:

Shrike 8 DP
Medusa 12 DP
Hyperion 15 DP
Fury 20 DP or 15 DP
Aurora 30 DP
Odyssey 45 DP

I certainly think the Fury looks better at the 20 DP in that lineup, given you've already got the Medusa at 12 DP and the Hyperion at 15 DP.  I'd much rather see the Fury balanced at the 20 DP level as that looks like an easier to distinguish progression.   Dropping it to 15 DP means competing in the Medusa and Hyperion space, which would feel really overcrowded to be honest.  Then there's nothing in that doctrine between 15 DP to 30 DP, which feels like a pretty big gap.

There is also the problem that the Eagle and to a lesser extent the Falcon design kind of fight itself.  Fury's design actually works together (and synergizes strongly with safety overrides, but that's a separate point).  To get to 15 DP, you'd essentially have to make it barely stronger than a Medusa, and on par with the Hyperion, the latter of which is already a fast, shield tanking, 3 medium mount, maneuverability system using ship.  For example, Medusa and Hyperion already have 600 flux dissipation max, compared to the Falcon's 700, as well as 16,667 max effective shield capacity compared to the Falcon's  max capacity of 16,250.

Or in other words, the high tech doctrine simply uses high end destroyers and frigates to fill the light cruiser niche better than a midline light cruiser.  Keep in mind, non-beam energy weapons (the bread and butter of a Fury) don't get as much benefit from a Dedicated Targeting Core as a ballistics ship would, so I don't see a need for a 15 DP high tech doctrine ship in the cruiser format.  I'll also note, Heavy blasters will cover a multitude of sins in terms of making up for DPS with only a few mounts.  If people feel the Fury isn't worth DP, then I'd rather see it buffed than drop down to the DP range of two other already existing high tech doctrine ships.
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Grievous69

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #128 on: February 03, 2023, 07:28:54 AM »

I mean when you put it like that it does look nicer in that 20 DP spot. But the important part is to take a look at its role and how the ship is meant to be used. Fury is basically a bigger Shrike, not much science there. So as Shrike, it's also a fast flanker/harasser that can zoom into a battle an unleash a burst of missiles and energy weapons. Everyone here knows AI doesn't really do flanking maneuvers nor it has perfect timing to strike (also sometimes hesitant to pull off and active vent), which is why people call such ships "punch down" ships. 8 DP for a punch down ship makes sense, since frigates don't cost a lot less, only tiny less. Fury on the other hand costs 20 DP and ships which it can reliably kill are much cheaper than itself. Which is why I hate that the bloody thing occupies the same points in your fleet as Gryphon does.

You could sugarcoat this role all day long, I just don't have the need to spend 20 DP (the cost of an average cruiser) for a ship that can handle base Falcons at best.
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David

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #129 on: February 03, 2023, 07:30:58 AM »

If you are right, then why I can use blue without moderator privilege ?

(Because we'd rather spend out time making a cool game than modifying forum settings.)
So hey, just please be considerate of the standard of moderation text having exclusive use of the blue. Thank you!

... letsee, anything else to comment on... no, I think Alex has things covered nicely. Glad to see people excited, will be fun to see reactions to all the new stuff when it's out. *thumbs up*
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #130 on: February 03, 2023, 07:37:19 AM »

S-mods are looking more like hullmod version of elite skills.

Integrated Point Defense AI:

    Cost reduced to 3/6/9/15 (was: 4/8/12/20)
    Gives abilty to ignore decoy flares and +50% damage to missiles
    Converting small weapons to PD is now the s-mod effect bonus
[/color]

Good improvement. 
" ignore decoy flares and +50% damage to missiles" sounds more of system feeature, than weapon (large  burst PD laser)
Converting small weapons to PD  is great to have as option.  Probably   best case of usage of  the new  side  effect of hulmodes. Althou I would prefer  a  system where  certain hullmodes / weapons have  alternative functionality  which  is set in the weapon fittig screen. 
My question to Alex is if the maximum target leading is basic or s-mod/elite only?

I usually use IPDAI for turning small weapons into PD to exploit elite Point Defense, that is a Ballistic Rangefinder alternative for those that cannot use Ballistic Rangefinder or cannot afford it but could afford IPDAI.

But there were few times I have used IPDAI to make ballistic PD reliable enough to track the likes of Salamanders (or other fast and/or erratic missile) and/or strong enough to stop Squalls.

Shield Shunt can be built in (and has an extra armor bonus effect when built in with a story point)
Shield  Shunt  need a buff. It is interesting  option but totaly suboptimal in  any   battle situation. I have found just one occasion, Shunted  Eradicator for 17DP as punch down fast  capture point cruiser.  Althou requirement to grow a one-trick-pony pilot with special set of skill makes is niche in the niche >>> therefore not using shield shunt anyway.
This change means, that  much needed buff of  shield shunt hullmode available only as s-smode means,  in fact no buff.
It is (probably) the worst example of the new side  effects of hullmodes where  SIDE effect is extension of the MAIN effect.
This is what I do not want to see/kind of feared for s-mods.  Probably makes BotB even more important.

Shield Shunt (after the nerf to 15%) was weak to being with, and with s-mod making it stronger, it will likely be an automatic s-mod for would-be shunted ships.  Just give Shield Shunt the full bonus and raise the OP cost to ITU levels.
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FooF

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #131 on: February 03, 2023, 07:42:06 AM »

@Hiruma Kai

A convincing argument. I was looking at the Fury from the lens of the Cruiser line up rather than the High Tech. From that perspective, you’re right: it would bump into the Medusa, though I feel the Hyperion is sort of an outlier and not a a “mainline” ship.

However, I’d be curious how many players compare a Falcon to a Medusa to a Hyperion (I.e. across hull sizes). That’s not immediately intuitive. Or perhaps it’s better to ask, what is the most common way folks compare ships? Is it hull size, DP, burn speed, role, etc?

I’m inclined to agree with Grievous69 when comparing it against a Heron, Gryphon, Mora, Apogee or the now cheaper Eagle: is it on par with these other 20ish DP ships? Maybe it should be 18 like the Eagle.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2023, 07:45:57 AM by FooF »
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #132 on: February 03, 2023, 07:46:06 AM »

However, I’d be curious how many players compare a Falcon to a Medusa to a Hyperion (I.e. across hull sizes). That’s not immediately intuitive. Or perhaps it’s better to ask, what is the most common way folks compare ships? Is it hull size, DP, burn speed, etc?
I compare Medusa to Falcon because they have similar enough mounts and play similarly (or at least the AI does).  I consider standard Falcon the midline Medusa.

I tend to compare DP because I am only guaranteed 160 DP at the start, and I want overpowered ships if I am up against a superior enemy.

I’m inclined to agree with Grievous69 when comparing it against a Heron, Gryphon, Mora, Apogee or the now cheaper Eagle: is it on par with these other 20ish DP ships? Maybe it should be 18 like the Eagle.
I picked Apogee over Fury because it was cheaper and AI can use it better.  I picked Fury only because it was cheaper than 22 DP Eagle (and much less than Aurora's 30), but I usually took Eradicator or another Gryphon instead.

Mora, I used, but Heron without s-mods is too OP-starved for a battlecarrier loadout (unlike Drover or Mora).


P.S.  Similarly, as an AI ship, I do not think Aurora is worth 30 DP.  I almost always picked Dominator, Champion, or rarely, Doom for AI after being disappointed with AI's underperformance with Aurora.  Aurora under AI control feels more like a 25 DP ship.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2023, 08:20:46 AM by Megas »
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Grievous69

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #133 on: February 03, 2023, 08:43:39 AM »

Oh right I forgot to ask another thing, is the LP Manticore also 12 DP? Because that franky seems busted for a faction that's already harder than every other faction in the game (excluding exploration stuff ofc).
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Thaago

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #134 on: February 03, 2023, 08:45:47 AM »

Apogee is the best "all in one" ship in the game, that's probably why so many like it. Not to mention the unique design. I've seen before some comments saying how the ship is slow to be a real combat cruiser, and to this day I want to know the number of their dealer.

The Apogee is a weak ship for my playstyle because it is too slow to run away from anything that can kill it or chase things it can kill: 60 speed with no system is slow these days. It has raw defensive stats in its shield and surprisingly solid armor/hull, but fairs poorly when outmatched and it has a bad weapon layout (the medium energies can plink at flankers but can't point in the same arc as its large). If it uses a squall it has fire support but no finisher; if it uses a plasma cannon it has hard flux but bad range; if it uses a HIL it has range but struggles with shields, etc. All of these flaws can be corrected by either using formations of Apogees or supporting ships, but I wouldn't call them "all in one". For me in the cruiser niche that title goes to the Champion.

I prefer the Fury over the Apogee even post nerf (Gasp! Shock!). It's fast enough to reliably get itself out of the way of formations of capital ships and quickly hunt isolated targets. Stat wise it is weaker, but I find it a more useful ship for making the enemy die because of the speed differential. It is also burn 9, which is handy in campaign for choosing fights and leading a destroyer squad.

I'll also note that "and to this day I want to know the number of their dealer" doesn't actually argue anything, its just a casual ad-hominem insult. Please don't use those.
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