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Author Topic: Fossic Vanilla Weapon Guide for Starsector 0.95.1  (Read 2789 times)

Achi Cirno

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Fossic Vanilla Weapon Guide for Starsector 0.95.1
« on: January 26, 2023, 09:04:09 AM »

A weapon guide I've translated for a while.

Special thanks to Lortus

Made by Seafood group(ANyIDElse, lililili, seal, scythe) Thanks: lilili



This weapon guide involve lots of minmaxing and been tested via tournament like environment (like 100DP/150DP/240DP). Feel free to give any rational feedback.


https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xz6xx7Vhn23KqVXXCf_u4b8v9CnEyPUY/edit

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Grievous69

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Re: Fossic Vanilla Weapon Guide for Starsector 0.95.1
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2023, 09:14:41 AM »

I read the whole thing when it was posted to reddit, I'll assume nothing was changed in the meantime.

So glad Arbalest is getting the love it deserves, most folks still look down upon it and think it's a weak weapon.

Honestly don't have a single critique besides the unexpected Dual Flak hate. Hate might be a strong word but from the wording it appears it's like a downgrade that costs more OP. Single Flak is still a great choice but Dual Flak is the best ballistic PD by a wide margin. Devastator seems kinda overrated in the guide on the other hand.
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Achi Cirno

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Re: Fossic Vanilla Weapon Guide for Starsector 0.95.1
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2023, 09:27:28 AM »

Honestly don't have a single critique besides the unexpected Dual Flak hate. Hate might be a strong word but from the wording it appears it's like a downgrade that costs more OP. Single Flak is still a great choice but Dual Flak is the best ballistic PD by a wide margin. Devastator seems kinda overrated in the guide on the other hand.

Well it's not a degree of *hate*. It just listed what it's good at and what it struggles. Personally I like Dual Flak just as much as flak, but both of them cannot replace each other.
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Wyvern

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Re: Fossic Vanilla Weapon Guide for Starsector 0.95.1
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2023, 10:09:14 AM »

Huh, this guide actually seems pretty well matched to my experiences. Just a few comments I'd add...

* There are cases where multiple ion cannons makes sense; most notably on a non-missile-focused Aurora. They're efficient enough to help with anti-shield, and a battery of four of them can reduce return fire to very nearly zero once shields are down.

* I'm surprised at the relatively high rating of the HIL; in my experience, the Tachyon Lance consistently outperforms it even accounting for the higher OP cost. (The possible exception here is in turret mounts - it's hard for auto-fire to keep a tachyon lance burst from a turret on-target. Then again, it's also hard to keep a turreted HIL on-target, so - possible exception; I'm not sure.)

* Hammer Barrage is probably deservedly panned for the context of a tournament environment, but there is one thing it's got over every other large missile: raw DPS. If you're going into a fight knowing that there's one big target you'll want to take down fast - i.e., you're assaulting an enemy battlestation - the Hammer Barrage is really good for that. (At least if the ship with the hammers is under player control; the AI simply will not use the full DPS of the weapon.)
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SapphireSage

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Re: Fossic Vanilla Weapon Guide for Starsector 0.95.1
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2023, 10:40:36 AM »

Reading through it at the moment and wanted to make a correction. You mention that Heavy Autocannon would be outranged by railgun on ships with Large Ballistics and Ballistic Rangefinder but that's not true. Instead they would match at 900 range as a Large ballistic means that the max range of Rangefinder's bonus is raised to 900. Large Ballistic also adds 200 range for small ballistic (700 + 200 = 900) but also adds 100 range for medium ballistic (800 + 100 = 900!). Unfortunately, this is only true with Ballistic slots, which is why Rangefinder is rarely worth the OP for the Legion.
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Achi Cirno

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Re: Fossic Vanilla Weapon Guide for Starsector 0.95.1
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2023, 10:55:38 AM »

Reading through it at the moment and wanted to make a correction. You mention that Heavy Autocannon would be outranged by railgun on ships with Large Ballistics and Ballistic Rangefinder but that's not true. Instead they would match at 900 range as a Large ballistic means that the max range of Rangefinder's bonus is raised to 900. Large Ballistic also adds 200 range for small ballistic (700 + 200 = 900) but also adds 100 range for medium ballistic (800 + 100 = 900!). Unfortunately, this is only true with Ballistic slots, which is why Rangefinder is rarely worth the OP for the Legion.

noted and changed. It's suppose to mean heavy autocannon isn't very usable when we have range finder small kinetic to deliever kinetic damage. And we have arbalest and HVD&mauler for medium ballistic focused ship, needler for ships that has energy slot.

thanks for mention
« Last Edit: January 26, 2023, 11:47:38 AM by Achi Cirno »
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BCS

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Re: Fossic Vanilla Weapon Guide for Starsector 0.95.1
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2023, 11:01:20 AM »

Honestly don't have a single critique besides the unexpected Dual Flak hate. Hate might be a strong word but from the wording it appears it's like a downgrade that costs more OP. Single Flak is still a great choice but Dual Flak is the best ballistic PD by a wide margin. Devastator seems kinda overrated in the guide on the other hand.

I'd say the opposite, normal flak is very underwhelming because most missiles/fighters move so quickly that the extra range doesn't really matter. You need at least two of them for them to actually work. Dual flak on the other hand can really shut down just about anything it targets.
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Grievous69

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Re: Fossic Vanilla Weapon Guide for Starsector 0.95.1
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2023, 11:10:28 AM »

Honestly don't have a single critique besides the unexpected Dual Flak hate. Hate might be a strong word but from the wording it appears it's like a downgrade that costs more OP. Single Flak is still a great choice but Dual Flak is the best ballistic PD by a wide margin. Devastator seems kinda overrated in the guide on the other hand.

I'd say the opposite, normal flak is very underwhelming because most missiles/fighters move so quickly that the extra range doesn't really matter. You need at least two of them for them to actually work. Dual flak on the other hand can really shut down just about anything it targets.
True, but as you mentioned, it's heavily dependent on how many mounts for PD you're planning to have. Real question would be if you prefer 3 Flaks on a single ship, or 2 Dual Flaks. I'd take 2 Dual ones every single time.
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Achi Cirno

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Re: Fossic Vanilla Weapon Guide for Starsector 0.95.1
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2023, 11:17:12 AM »

Huh, this guide actually seems pretty well matched to my experiences. Just a few comments I'd add...

* There are cases where multiple ion cannons makes sense; most notably on a non-missile-focused Aurora. They're efficient enough to help with anti-shield, and a battery of four of them can reduce return fire to very nearly zero once shields are down.

* I'm surprised at the relatively high rating of the HIL; in my experience, the Tachyon Lance consistently outperforms it even accounting for the higher OP cost. (The possible exception here is in turret mounts - it's hard for auto-fire to keep a tachyon lance burst from a turret on-target. Then again, it's also hard to keep a turreted HIL on-target, so - possible exception; I'm not sure.)

* Hammer Barrage is probably deservedly panned for the context of a tournament environment, but there is one thing it's got over every other large missile: raw DPS. If you're going into a fight knowing that there's one big target you'll want to take down fast - i.e., you're assaulting an enemy battlestation - the Hammer Barrage is really good for that. (At least if the ship with the hammers is under player control; the AI simply will not use the full DPS of the weapon.)

those are my own opinion but:

*slot can be left empty to save OP for other hullmod. And if I'm looking for a close ranged anti-shield weapon (when I cannot use light machine gun alike), ir pulse can be considered. Ion cannon doesn't have much damage potential when ir pulse--has same OP cost, better flux efficiency, better DPS, same range. Try it on your aurora(aurora's medium missiles is irreplacable, however small slot can be worked around)

*you might already witness AI turn their tachy 5 degree when firing and missed rest of the beam damage. Still large energy has some serious competition due to how percious the slot is, but tachy cannot completely replace HIL due to: anti-phase, having better AI control, better DPS.

*while yes its DPS advantage is described as better reload speed, and didn't mention much(I'll notice the author). I used hammer on my SO champ and it does work like a charm. Still Large missile is precious as always, and long range missile's support ability is non-questioning(which only fighters can compete due to never blocking line of fire). Minmaxing does sacrifice gameplay in some degree.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2023, 11:20:22 AM by Achi Cirno »
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Wyvern

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Re: Fossic Vanilla Weapon Guide for Starsector 0.95.1
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2023, 11:22:07 AM »

Huh, this guide actually seems pretty well matched to my experiences. Just a few comments I'd add...

* There are cases where multiple ion cannons makes sense; most notably on a non-missile-focused Aurora. They're efficient enough to help with anti-shield, and a battery of four of them can reduce return fire to very nearly zero once shields are down.

those are my own opinion but:

*slot can be left empty to save OP for other hullmod. And if I'm looking for a close ranged anti-shield weapon (when I cannot use light machine gun alike), ir pulse can be used. Ion cannon doesn't have much damage potential when ir pulse--has same OP cost, better flux efficiency, better DPS, same range. Try it on your aurora(aurora's medium missiles is irreplacable, however small slot can be worked around)
Oh, sure, you'd never pick the ion cannon explicitly for anti-shield; you pick them for the EMP when shields are down. But they are flux-efficient for the small amount of damage they deal; when you've got them, you can just leave them on and they at least don't hurt you against shields the way a less efficient gun would.
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WhisperDSP

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Re: Fossic Vanilla Weapon Guide for Starsector 0.95.1
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2023, 11:56:01 PM »

Very nice.

I will have to work on my spreadsheet for the weapons. Just to make them easier to see at a glance - my brain isn’t at the point of knowing immediately what’s good for various roles. This helps lots, kudos.

Void Ganymede

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Re: Fossic Vanilla Weapon Guide for Starsector 0.95.1
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2023, 02:44:49 AM »

A guide containing the words "Mass gauss cannon" is my kind of guide!

You can tell it's well-tested because specialist guns like the Hellbore, that require the ship or fleet to be built to support it, are given the credit they're due.

I am curious about how unimpressed it sounds with Safety Overrides. I also think light mortars and tac lasers are underrated due to gimmick Elite Point Defense + IPDAI builds.
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Doctorhealsgood

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Re: Fossic Vanilla Weapon Guide for Starsector 0.95.1
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2023, 10:28:02 AM »

Wait a minute... Fragment damage is massively weak to both shield and armor but deals normal damage against hull? Oof.
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Grievous69

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Re: Fossic Vanilla Weapon Guide for Starsector 0.95.1
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2023, 10:45:49 AM »

Wait a minute... Fragment damage is massively weak to both shield and armor but deals normal damage against hull? Oof.
Keep in mind that usually frag weapons have insanely good flux efficiency.
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BCS

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Re: Fossic Vanilla Weapon Guide for Starsector 0.95.1
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2023, 11:28:12 AM »

Wait a minute... Fragment damage is massively weak to both shield and armor but deals normal damage against hull? Oof.

Well, I keep hearing that only missiles have hull. Ships always have armor, even if they have no armor(since they get the 5% base armor minimum at all times) So fragmentation damage actually does 25% damage against ship hull too.
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