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Author Topic: Poison gameplay loop; (by design)  (Read 3197 times)

Schwartz

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Re: Poison gameplay loop; (by design)
« Reply #45 on: January 17, 2023, 07:41:29 PM »

Just having max CR always be 100% and the skills add the high CR benefits sounds good.

Sounds convoluted. Another thing that'll need more explaining than it does now. All this to plug a theoretical hole that outside of this thread most people haven't noticed or cared about. Idk.
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gG_pilot

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Re: Poison gameplay loop; (by design)
« Reply #46 on: January 17, 2023, 08:21:36 PM »

Just more generally - it feels to me like "what officer is this ship assigned to" ought to be a more long-term decision and that shuffling officers around to optimize for a specific encounter - no matter how clean the UI - is just fundamentally annoying. This is, of course, subjective.
Ship  limit is  set to 30. Pilot limit is set to 8(about). It means game is set that player has about 4 ships for one Pilot.  It means  >>  this setting and fact that pilot make significant boost player should switch pilots for eevery encounter to achieve best combination of CR ready ships with pilots. I thouth that it is the part of game by design.

Also there was topics on this forum complaining, that Pilot skills are too stiff so when player change ship types it takes ages to grow a neew piilot. It all say, switching pilot to a ship is common action so shouuld be supported by UI. Player's ,ain character is encouraged to switch several ships per encounter, hired Pilots should be treated similar.  Lets think about hired Pilots like they are main characters of other (online) players, but temporary are controlled by AI.
(... actually, this makes me wonder if going through officers might not be a nice way to bring back a different take on crew veterancy. Having the officer gain XP *on that ship* along a separate track, with some kind of basic bonus to ship performance... hmm. And you'd lose it/it'd take a hit when the officer is swapped out.)
Well, I am sorry. Exact opposite is needed, pilots need to be more flexible. Dont make game narrow, so player choose all variants of his play-style in the beginning, then fallow rails. Rather offer options, variants, which could be explored anytime.

Imagine situations : New ship founded, new fleet skill obtained, ship lost, ship is zero CR, ship is mothballed becouse  of low crew, specific mission needs (yes, the  Secret missions  again), face other type of opponents  which is better to counter by other ships, .... . All these  situations need ADAPTATION. To make game playful, is better support adaptation gameplay, rather then create rules enforcing stiff fleet from start to end. The Call_reinforcement screen could be the comfortable place for drag&drop Pilots. When combat start or in the middle. When a hired Pilot get shot down, it takes 10s cool-down then he become available to be attached to a new ship and  call in as reinforcement  again.
==========
Out of  topic - Veterancy
 I was rather thinking about Common_crew(current) and Technicians (new_veterans). Where veterans are crew who ads some non-combat bonus (maintenance discount Kitchen Chef, fuel  saving Engineer, CR recover speed Mechanic, cargo space Logistic, Navigator +1 burn speed, ScrapYard Master +10% salvage, .... many types of specialists >> a card collection type of mini game ) for a price(extra salary like 200coins each per month). So you might collecting those bonus crew in combat (man of the hour); or find one in a bar; or in a frozen pod; or in a planet comm center. Important dinamics >> these vets count towards crew headcount. Also Vets can die like any other Common_crew OR (prevent save scum feature) - veteran do not die by accident(combat), but stay for a year then leave (basically same rule as merc, but no option to prolong contract so it creates a dynamic of continuous changes). Veteran_crew are not forever like pilots. Then those veterans can have a coldown to get familiar with ship, like a week, then they add bonus. Cooldown prevents hot-swap, but allows change ship.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2023, 02:51:38 AM by gG_pilot »
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llama

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Re: Poison gameplay loop; (by design)
« Reply #47 on: January 17, 2023, 08:26:28 PM »

Just having max CR always be 100% and the skills add the high CR benefits sounds good.

Sounds convoluted. Another thing that'll need more explaining than it does now. All this to plug a theoretical hole that outside of this thread most people haven't noticed or cared about. Idk.
Wait, isn't it actually more intuitive? In video games when you're given a quantity expressed as a percentage you expect the maximum to be 100% by default (eg 100% health in any game that does this).
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Schwartz

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Re: Poison gameplay loop; (by design)
« Reply #48 on: January 18, 2023, 01:00:02 AM »

I meant the other part. That 100% does not give certain bonuses, but having skills on top of 100% gives bonuses. The decoupling of the two is what would be strange.

And it's just as intuitive to start out with smaller health bars that grow to maximum in the course of a game.
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gG_pilot

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Re: Poison gameplay loop; (by design)
« Reply #49 on: January 18, 2023, 02:06:16 AM »

I meant the other part. That 100% does not give certain bonuses, but having skills on top of 100% gives bonuses. The decoupling of the two is what would be strange.

And it's just as intuitive to start out with smaller health bars that grow to maximum in the course of a game.
Having a full health bar but sit on 80% Hit points is the most confusing proposal of the week.  ;D

Edited & improved my previos post, reply to Mr. Alex.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2023, 02:49:45 AM by gG_pilot »
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Jackundor

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Re: Poison gameplay loop; (by design)
« Reply #50 on: January 18, 2023, 04:33:02 AM »

Just having max CR always be 100% and the skills add the high CR benefits sounds good.

Sounds convoluted. Another thing that'll need more explaining than it does now. All this to plug a theoretical hole that outside of this thread most people haven't noticed or cared about. Idk.
Wait, isn't it actually more intuitive? In video games when you're given a quantity expressed as a percentage you expect the maximum to be 100% by default (eg 100% health in any game that does this).
well, the thing is that you can't get maximum CR from the start, and Alex chose the maximum possible CR as the baseline for the bar.
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BaBosa

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Re: Poison gameplay loop; (by design)
« Reply #51 on: January 18, 2023, 05:05:13 AM »

I still think my idea of just capping the benefit (not the actual CR) to the max CR amount is the cleanest solution. Even if the player moves officers around right before combat for unrelated reasons they won't notice the slight debuff because it's only 5% and possibly be expecting it anyway, the only way they'll really notice it is if they think of it and go check so a little note on the CR bar in the refit screen explaining what's going on if it is relevant should be enough. This would let the player move to a higher CR ship in combat and benefit just like with missile spec but that is so small that it isn't worth trying to fix.
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FooF

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Re: Poison gameplay loop; (by design)
« Reply #52 on: January 18, 2023, 05:27:06 AM »

I’m not sure what the issue with keeping 70% as “baseline” for CR is? It makes it obvious you can increase your CR and it doesn’t make Alex re-tool the whole deployment system. Uncoupling the CR bonuses from CR itself also seems convoluted.

I mean 70% where I come from usually indicates “average” which is pretty much what “standard performance” entails. If I have a machine operating at 100% efficiency, that’s a rare thing.
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BCS

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Re: Poison gameplay loop; (by design)
« Reply #53 on: January 18, 2023, 05:50:33 AM »

Well, the issue is that you can actually increase CR by 45%. So baseline should be 55%!
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FooF

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Re: Poison gameplay loop; (by design)
« Reply #54 on: January 18, 2023, 06:23:15 AM »

45%? Combat Endurance and Crew Training are the only ones I can think of. Support Doctrine adds CE, so it doesn’t double-dip. What am I missing?
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Grievous69

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Re: Poison gameplay loop; (by design)
« Reply #55 on: January 18, 2023, 06:42:19 AM »

Hull Restoration giving 5% bonus CR per s-mod installed.
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Please don't take me too seriously.

FooF

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Re: Poison gameplay loop; (by design)
« Reply #56 on: January 18, 2023, 09:04:06 AM »

Ah, right. Tells you how much I use that one…! I see multiple paths to 100%, rather than The One True Way to 115%. Does CR actually go to 115% I can’t say I’ve ever noticed.
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gG_pilot

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Re: Poison gameplay loop; (by design)
« Reply #57 on: January 18, 2023, 09:36:21 AM »

 I wasnt aware of rocket trick, I pilot ships very  seldom and my character has no combat skills.
Here are simple set of rules which remove poison from switching ships while offer  a freedom for player.

1. When Player move main character in combat to the ship where is a pilot, then he get a role of "Backseat commander" e.i. player can control ship by keys and mouse,  but all the skills active belongs only to  original pilot.

2. In case Player move main character in combat to the ship where is  not a pilot, then skills of the player are used.  Rocket skills says, ammo is doubled so  it only need change to "current ammo". e.i. when player comes to the ship with depleted rockets,  then 2 times zero is zero. When player leave, number of  rockets is divided by 2 then cut decimals.

3. Support  doctrine is considered as "Level 3 pilot in every ship". Best would be, update default blank  face  with a generic  but Color_face_pilot so it gets a graphical representativeness, that a sort of veteran crew  command the ship. When Player move main character to the "empty ship", with Support doctrine, well it is not  empty so rule number one is used.

4. Switching hired pilots out off combat to let Support_Doctrine  pilot (or any other hired pilot)  make CR boost  is valid game play. Switching pilots should not be restricted by any cool-downs. Poison comes from tedious loop. Unfortunate UI. As other coments suggested, it would  be nice  to  have UI for comfortable pilot drag&drop. Not only for CR boost  but other Pilot shuffling. Therefore upgrade the Call_Reinforcement screen functionality as fallows:
- Allow drag&drop pilots beetwwen ships in reserve part of window, so then can  be Called to battle on demand
- Allow  drag&drop shipless pilots to a ship in reserve
- when pilot is shot down or retreat from battle it  takes 10 seconds cooldown to be available again for drag&drop to another ship
- add list of oponents on the field and in reserve (and their total DP on the field and in reserve) to the Call_Reinforcement screen so when player choosing his battle squad  can see on the same screen opponent forces (e.i. game  do not force player remember all numbers of all ship to be able field adequate response)

Finally allow access to Call_reinforce screen from Fleet  interface. So player can quickly reorganize pilots even out of combat. Less restrictions more freedom.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2023, 10:00:23 AM by gG_pilot »
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Megas

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Re: Poison gameplay loop; (by design)
« Reply #58 on: January 18, 2023, 09:45:18 AM »

Ah, right. Tells you how much I use that one…! I see multiple paths to 100%, rather than The One True Way to 115%. Does CR actually go to 115% I can’t say I’ve ever noticed.
No.  However, Alpha Radiant (who starts at 20% CR) can benefit from three sources for 60% or 65% CR.  Also, civilian ships without Military Subsystems do not benefit from Crew Training.

Getting Hull Restoration is a massive cost since there are no tier 3 combat skills in Industry (unlike Tech), and Industry capstones give a relatively minor combat boost as consolation.
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BCS

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Re: Poison gameplay loop; (by design)
« Reply #59 on: January 18, 2023, 09:52:15 AM »

Getting Hull Restoration is a massive cost since there are no tier 3 combat skills in Industry (unlike Tech), and Industry capstones give a relatively minor combat boost as consolation.

That's why I'd love if you actually could get CR to 115% with all that entails(another +5% to everything)
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