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Author Topic: Buff the Medium Energy Slot  (Read 5701 times)

Grievous69

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Re: Buff the Medium Energy Slot
« Reply #60 on: January 14, 2023, 01:03:29 PM »

You know, I had this exact same thought when I initially saw the Mining Blaster on Twitter. I just didn't think it was worth enough to talk about it. Phase Lance would probably still have a role, only a super small one. Like a niche beyond niche. Not sure what it could be done, as I agree that just having a bunch of 1.0 efficiency weapons is boring. RoF increase sounds nice but I dread giving such a thing to AI.

Only reason I justified that 1.2 efficiency was because of its burst. But Mining Blaster will surpass it in that role (even after Alex adjusts the stats), so unfortunately it indirectly got much worse all of a sudden.
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Megas

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Re: Buff the Medium Energy Slot
« Reply #61 on: January 14, 2023, 03:24:50 PM »

As an off-the-wall suggestion, why not increase the RoF of the Phase Lance while leaving the actual armor penetration alone? Beams half as long in duration but firing (roughly) twice as fast?
That is effectively the Omega's Rift Lance (which takes a small mount).
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Thaago

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Re: Buff the Medium Energy Slot
« Reply #62 on: January 14, 2023, 04:04:26 PM »

With all the other buffs coming to medium energies I would not say no to a phase lance buff, but I will also say that in its current form I use them frequently alongside kinetics and for burst damage builds, including on non-high tech ships that you'd think the poorer efficiency would be important on. The current weapon works.

For phase lances, doing full damage to shields and being in a burst makes their being soft flux matter less - it still matters, but the damage is delivered quickly enough that high flux targets can't dissipate it during the burst. And because its a beam, even overloading doesn't actually save them from the damage the way it does with high per shot damage projectiles. I do wish the AI would fire them less frequently into low flux targets when backed by kinetics, but burst weapons are trickier than ammo weapons in terms of shot conservation.

In terms of dealing with shields, 214 soft flux/sec at 1.2 in 1250 spikes is imo much better than 87.5 hard flux at 2.0 (I have no idea what the initial spike size will be, as the revealed stats are confirmed to be being tweaked downwards in terms of burst). I'm very happy to hear that the mining blaster is going to have custom fire logic to preserve itself and not waste into shields! Thats going to make it way better at its job of armor and hull killing.

In terms of anti-hull, I think they are going to be nearly equal at DPS once the mining blaster's burst is down, as the MB has lower DPS but better penetration (700 vs 500), but with better efficiency. Otoh, even high flux shields can 'catch' mining blaster shots safely, while they really can't catch phase lances... I'm really unsure here. I think for medium-armor targets I might prefer the phase lance depending on the burst and accuracy of the mining blaster! Also being able to get 800 range (with advanced optics) vs 500 is a decent difference.

Uhhh I kind of rambled there, but I think a firing logic tweak (and the aiming bug being fixed which we know it is!) would be just as important as a small stat change to making the phase lance keep up well.
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FooF

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Re: Buff the Medium Energy Slot
« Reply #63 on: January 14, 2023, 05:11:25 PM »

That is effectively the Omega's Rift Lance (which takes a small mount).

Tells you how much I use Omega weapons, eh? ;) Yep, literally the same. So…scratch that idea!

@Thaago

Yeah, I’m really wary of power creep, as well. I don’t think the current Phase Lance is bad but I’m just seeing all these changes and wondering if the meta will pass it by.

Again, maybe a little off the wall here, but what if Phase Lances siphoned flux off of shields? I.e, if they hit a shield, their flux cost got halved or something. It doesn’t actually raise or lower the enemy ship’s flux any more or less, or do any additional damage, it’s just a scripted discount for the Phase Lance when hitting shields. So, real numbers, if a Phase Lance connects with shields, it fires 1250 soft flux into it but only costs 750 instead of 1500. The moment shields drop, it goes back to its 1.2 efficiency.

It wouldn’t feel so bad firing into shields this way because you know you’re not “wasting” the shot. It’s still soft flux, but it’s efficient. You can tweak the numbers (25%, etc.) but it’s a thought. I’m kind of surprised there isn’t a flux siphon weapon of some sort already. Or the Mechwarrior equivalent of a Flamer that basically does no damage but drives up Heat (Kinetics are sort of this on shields but imagine a weapon that drove up hard flux when hitting hull/armor but did little to no actual damage)

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Wyvern

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Re: Buff the Medium Energy Slot
« Reply #64 on: January 14, 2023, 06:05:16 PM »

Again, maybe a little off the wall here, but what if Phase Lances siphoned flux off of shields? I.e, if they hit a shield, their flux cost got halved or something. It doesn’t actually raise or lower the enemy ship’s flux any more or less, or do any additional damage, it’s just a scripted discount for the Phase Lance when hitting shields. So, real numbers, if a Phase Lance connects with shields, it fires 1250 soft flux into it but only costs 750 instead of 1500. The moment shields drop, it goes back to its 1.2 efficiency.

It wouldn’t feel so bad firing into shields this way because you know you’re not “wasting” the shot. It’s still soft flux, but it’s efficient. You can tweak the numbers (25%, etc.) but it’s a thought.
This is actually a pretty neat idea. An elegant solution to the issue of the AI just firing it into enemy shields regardless of their flux level.
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Embolism

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Re: Buff the Medium Energy Slot
« Reply #65 on: January 14, 2023, 09:31:14 PM »

I actually don't like the Mining Blaster being "useful", to be honest. It feels wrong to see Mining Blasters mounted on something like a Harbinger. IMO "mining weapons" should always be inferior (but cheaper OP wise) to dedicated military counterparts, e.g. hammer vs reaper, mining laser vs PD laser.

I'd feel a lot better about the Mining Blaster if we get a military-grade upgrade for it (and really, the iteration of the Mining Blaster in the post is probably too strong and needs a nerf). I see Alex thinks the Heavy Blaster is the military-grade version which is true previously but this new iteration where it actually has a niche as a flux-efficient armor breaker? Not really.

As long as the Mining Blaster is best-in-slot for something (e.g. Harbinger) I won't feel good about it.
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Doctorhealsgood

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Re: Buff the Medium Energy Slot
« Reply #66 on: January 25, 2023, 07:00:53 PM »

I actually don't like the Mining Blaster being "useful", to be honest. It feels wrong to see Mining Blasters mounted on something like a Harbinger. IMO "mining weapons" should always be inferior (but cheaper OP wise) to dedicated military counterparts, e.g. hammer vs reaper, mining laser vs PD laser.

I'd feel a lot better about the Mining Blaster if we get a military-grade upgrade for it (and really, the iteration of the Mining Blaster in the post is probably too strong and needs a nerf). I see Alex thinks the Heavy Blaster is the military-grade version which is true previously but this new iteration where it actually has a niche as a flux-efficient armor breaker? Not really.

As long as the Mining Blaster is best-in-slot for something (e.g. Harbinger) I won't feel good about it.
I used hammers but never a mining blaster because they are just not worth it. If a weapon is designed to be useless i honestly see no point on it existing at all. The mining blaster should be useful even if not optimal. I get the point that the mining blaster being the best option is odd but it should still be worth giving consideration.
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Amoebka

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Re: Buff the Medium Energy Slot
« Reply #67 on: January 25, 2023, 09:50:20 PM »

be inferior (but cheaper OP wise)
This is not a functional balance option in Starsector. You can always fit smaller number of more efficient and more expensive weapons, instead of filling all the slots with garbage. A weapon MUST be "best in slot" somewhere to be worth including in the game.
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Grievous69

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Re: Buff the Medium Energy Slot
« Reply #68 on: January 26, 2023, 12:47:26 AM »

This is not a functional balance option in Starsector. You can always fit smaller number of more efficient and more expensive weapons, instead of filling all the slots with garbage. A weapon MUST be "best in slot" somewhere to be worth including in the game.
Realism people when a mining weapon is no longer trash tier:   :o :o :o
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Embolism

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Re: Buff the Medium Energy Slot
« Reply #69 on: January 26, 2023, 02:39:18 AM »

be inferior (but cheaper OP wise)
This is not a functional balance option in Starsector. You can always fit smaller number of more efficient and more expensive weapons, instead of filling all the slots with garbage. A weapon MUST be "best in slot" somewhere to be worth including in the game.

A good comparison would be Hammers vs Reapers. Technically Hammers are inferior, but there are still situations when you want to use Hammers over Reapers for one reason or another. Light Mortar vs LAG is another one.

Mining Blaster vs Heavy Blaster though? With the change they no longer fill the same role exactly, and there's far too many situations where Mining Blaster (in the form shown in the tweet) is just straight up superior to the Heavy Blaster in most metrics (specifically when it comes to phase ships, which should be the last ships you expect makeshift weapons on).

By the by, Hammer torpedoes didn't always have the "ubiquitous because of uses found by miners" line, it got added because I complained that Daggers shouldn't be using Hammers (which was planned to replace Reapers on Daggers at the time, thankfully that never eventuated); so it got retconned into a military weapon that became popular with civilians for non-military purposes.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2023, 02:41:34 AM by Embolism »
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Grievous69

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Re: Buff the Medium Energy Slot
« Reply #70 on: January 26, 2023, 02:50:17 AM »

Hammer Barrage is a better choice 95% of the time than Cyclone Reapers, so I guess it's a good comparison but in favour of the other poster.

I'm really not sold on Mining Blaster obsoleting Heavy Blaster. First, HB does energy damage and high tech needs all the anti-shield it can get. Second, why are we still looking at Mining Blaster from the screenshot when Alex said it needs stat adjustments (or in other words, nerfs).

Also big surprise someone is afraid of phase ships being stronger, as they're pretty sad right now.
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Embolism

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Re: Buff the Medium Energy Slot
« Reply #71 on: January 26, 2023, 03:08:21 AM »

I thought it would be clear that my grievance is primarily a flavour one. A Harbinger using Mining Blasters as its best weapon is just wrong. I honestly am not too fussed about phase ship balance, given I mod out the phase speed debuff in my own games.

And I didn't say the Mining Blaster obsoletes the Heavy Blaster, I said they become no longer comparable. They no longer try to fill the same role, the Mining Blaster becomes its own thing which no other energy weapon does (and in what it does - armor breaking - it absolutely beats the heavy blaster for many ships). That's my problem with it, if a makeshift weapon exists to fill a unique niche then a military version of it WOULD be made.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2023, 03:11:04 AM by Embolism »
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Grievous69

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Re: Buff the Medium Energy Slot
« Reply #72 on: January 26, 2023, 03:23:12 AM »

Hyperion in the past also wanted Mining Blasters, IIRC that was the optimal weapon then. Not sure how things like these ruin the flavour. Even in reality some machines or high tech parts might use some crude tools or old parts since they just work nice together. I really don't think we should redesign a redesigned weapon just so it's not great on phase ships. If you want another weird example look at new DEM missiles which can be used on a Buffalo MKII., or hell you can even slap some [REDACTED] weapons on it and it would make for a nice fit. There's loads of stuff like this.

Quote
And I didn't say the Mining Blaster obsoletes the Heavy Blaster, I said they become no longer comparable. They no longer try to fill the same role, the Mining Blaster becomes its own thing which no other energy weapon does
You actually described how things should ideally be implemented and balanced. I for one don't like when games have 5 types of machine guns and only one or two are worth using. Of course not to say there shouldn't be overlapping roles but this is a much better way of dealing with an useless weapon.
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Embolism

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Re: Buff the Medium Energy Slot
« Reply #73 on: January 26, 2023, 03:34:10 AM »

Hyperion in the past also wanted Mining Blasters, IIRC that was the optimal weapon then. Not sure how things like these ruin the flavour. Even in reality some machines or high tech parts might use some crude tools or old parts since they just work nice together. I really don't think we should redesign a redesigned weapon just so it's not great on phase ships. If you want another weird example look at new DEM missiles which can be used on a Buffalo MKII., or hell you can even slap some [REDACTED] weapons on it and it would make for a nice fit. There's loads of stuff like this.

Quote
And I didn't say the Mining Blaster obsoletes the Heavy Blaster, I said they become no longer comparable. They no longer try to fill the same role, the Mining Blaster becomes its own thing which no other energy weapon does
You actually described how things should ideally be implemented and balanced. I for one don't like when games have 5 types of machine guns and only one or two are worth using. Of course not to say there shouldn't be overlapping roles but this is a much better way of dealing with an useless weapon.

I was going to mention Mining Blaster Hyperion as one of my pet hates actually, though that wasn't too bad because it was very niche and objectively the Mining Blaster is just super worse than Heavy Blaster except for its alpha strike power. But if civilians and renegades figure out how to make a flux-efficient explosive energy weapon (which the Heavy Blaster is absolutely not: it's a completely different weapon with the new change) you can bet military engineers would develop their own, premium version.

Like I said, flavour.

And to clarify, the issue is not "this weapon should not be useable anywhere because better alternatives exist", like you and I pointed out Hammer vs Reaper is a pretty good example because the Reaper thematically is the "military" version of the outdated Hammer; and yet Hammers are sometimes preferred over Reapers. That's fine by me.
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Doctorhealsgood

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Re: Buff the Medium Energy Slot
« Reply #74 on: January 26, 2023, 04:50:14 AM »

That is true all things considered. If the mining blaster had the happy happenstance that cracking asteroids open with a burst of energy blasts working just as well with enemy ships then people probably would had caught on to that. Guess the military version would be the ''premium'' version of it? Kinda like with railguns and autocannons i think. The mining blaster is going to get nerfed into something more sane so this would probably be the ideal chance to conserve some of its former power.
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