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Author Topic: Buff the Medium Energy Slot  (Read 5903 times)

Megas

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Re: Buff the Medium Energy Slot
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2023, 04:53:13 AM »

Mining Blaster is the low-tier Open Market armor cracker for Energy ships that was probably designed for enemy Ventures or civilians drawn into combat.  It should have its DP lowered below 10 to be more like other low-tier Open Market weapons.  As for when to use it, Apogee starter starts with it (and can support it), and there is nothing much better against heavy armor until Heavy Blaster or Plasma Cannon (or HIL/Tachyon if Apogee has Squalls) comes along.  Later in the game, after I have all the weapons I want, I never use it - too inefficient and not enough range.  It used to be useful for Hyperion when it had unlimited teleport before its recent redesign, but now it is no good for Hyperion anymore.

Heavy Burst Laser ignores countermeasures, so if I want burst PD but do not have IPDAI (or want more range than burst PD), I may want heavy burst laser.  Also, it is more efficient than phase lance (and has +200 if ePD is involved), so if I stack a few, I have a phase lance alternative (instead of one Phase Lance and two Tactical/Gravitons) that is more efficient (and more range if the ship has ePD).  Better anti-armor than Tactical Laser or Graviton Beam.  Works fine against human fleets, but admittedly underpowered against Ordos.

I use the following in medium energy mounts.
* Heavy Blaster - for big ships that can support it, or SO ships.
* Heavy Burst Laser - burst PD with more range; light anti-armor if the ship can focus several.
* IR PL - Two is superior to one Pulse Laser when ship has ePD+IPDAI, and many ships have smaller mounts to spare.
* Pulse Laser - shield cracker or flyswatter on ships without ePD.  Mediocre option all-around.
* Phase Lance - strike weapon for Harbinger.  Okay as flyswatter on some other ships.
* Mining Blaster - Apogee starts with it, and it will do until I find a heavy blaster or plasma cannon.  (Upgrading missiles has higher priority.)
* Ion Beam - rarely use, it takes too long for the beam to EMP an enemy.
* Ion Pulser - finisher or non-missile PD.
* Graviton Beam - rarely use, and most of the time I do use it, I also use High Scatter Amplifier to give it hard flux.

The new kinetic blaster will then likely fill the hole if none of the other weapons work as it will certainly be efficient vs shields and it is described as being like the heavy blaster which is good except for it’s flux.
If kinetic blaster is much rarer than standard human weapons because player cannot buy, order, or (with blueprint) mass-produce them (and must kill and grind LG Executors for them), I would not count kinetic blasters as a feasible option because they would be too rare, especially if Lion's Guard is less common than Ordos.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2023, 05:08:14 AM by Megas »
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Thaago

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Re: Buff the Medium Energy Slot
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2023, 12:24:22 PM »

I'd say the mining blaster has a very narrow niche in the early game for when I have no other armor crackers yet because its so widely available. Once I find a heavy blaster its out.
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TaLaR

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Re: Buff the Medium Energy Slot
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2023, 01:47:05 PM »

Mining Blaster's niche was old Hyperion with unlimited teleportation. But since that ship doesn't exist anymore, MB is always a subpar option.
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FooF

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Re: Buff the Medium Energy Slot
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2023, 07:09:04 PM »

In regards to the Heavy Burst Laser, no: it's not a mainstay by any stretch but it can be very potent anti-Missile PD. With all the Eagle testing I was doing in the Eagle thread, I found myself mounting HBL in the Medium Energies since the (modded) Large Ballistic was doing most of the heavy lifting. The HBL was zapping Sabots before they went to the second-stage and wiping Harpoons out very efficiently. Obviously, they get overloaded against fighters, Annihilators, Squalls, etc. but against some of the stronger single-shot missiles, they do very well. Also, they can contribute against armor much better than most PD if you get in close. Not an ideal use for them but they're better than other PD.

The Mining Blaster is obviously inferior to the Heavy Blaster but if you can score hits on armor, it's not completely awful. Using it against Shields (which the AI will do) is asinine though because of the inefficiency, unless you can cause an overload because of it.
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Wyvern

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Re: Buff the Medium Energy Slot
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2023, 09:41:34 PM »

I'm not sure if it still works out, but Heavy Burst Lasers on a Conquest at least used to be able to take out hurricane MIRVs before they split.

I very very rarely use it on hulls that don't have capital grade ITU, though.
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Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

pairedeciseaux

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Re: Buff the Medium Energy Slot
« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2023, 02:14:36 PM »

I do have extensive play time of current Hyperion with 1 or 2 Mining Blasters.

Only on player-controlled ship, MB manually fired, never shooting into shield, aiming (if possible in the heat of battle) engines and high priority weapons of enemy ships.

So I like it. Doesn't mean it's "the best", though.  ;D

Idea 1: increase its damage from 700 to 900, and reduce its fire rate from 30 shots/min to 20 shots/min. So a DPS decrease (from 350 to 300), but more importantly have an even more obvious "burst" behaviour. Don't ask me about flux per shot.

Idea 2: keep its damage and fire rate as is, but add a guaranteed on-hit secondary effect. Like damage a wider part of the armor, do higher damage to bare hull/engines/weapons.
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Amazigh

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Re: Buff the Medium Energy Slot
« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2023, 08:23:00 PM »

Mining blaster is something i've used on various (modded) phase frigates, they can zip behind the target and get around shields, so good shots into hull, and then can diss the (soft) flux from firing when phased, so the poor efficiency is less of an issue.
Ofc a heavy blaster would have been better, but i was using what i could get my hands on.
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ubuntufreakdragon

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Re: Buff the Medium Energy Slot
« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2023, 11:33:04 PM »

I would like to see the MB become a budget HE weapon, it looses in all stats against the HB improving them a bit wont change anything about it.
Make it HE about half the dmg and quarter the flux and you get a budget option for may situations.

The Pulse laser should get 25% more dmg without increased cost making it fit the 0.8 efficiency of other pulse laser sizes.
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Serenitis

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Re: Buff the Medium Energy Slot
« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2023, 11:57:49 PM »

Changing the damage type for Mining Blaster is something that would need to be given some careful consideration.
It is the only non-pd weapon in the base_bp group that has energy damage, and removing that could make quite a difference as you'd no longer have a (semi) useful weapon to put in energy slots that can actually hurt shields.
The Mining Blaster, like many of the things people complain about being "not the best and therefore useless" is designed as a fallback option for a faction that doesn't have access to anything.
Idea 1 / Idea 2
Yes! Double down on the implied role rather than change the role.

I can't say I like phase ships all that much, but I have used a Harbinger with Mining Blasters before. And it worked a lot better than I expected it to (caveat - this was before phase ships became self-immobilising, so it may not work the same now).
It also kind of works on a Sunder, although it really needs the extra speed from safety overrides to be able to slide away at all to get rid of all that flux.
Frigates do better at running and resetting though - especially if you put cautious guys in charge.

I don't really have a strong opinion on the Heavy Burst, as it's not something I've ever had much cause to use.
Light Bursts + beams seem to do just fine for pd. And only the rather uncommon medium synergy mounts would require its use if you had to have pd there.
They're also incredibly hard to find if you rely on salvage - easily one of the rarest weapons in the entire game.

The Pulse Laser could do with a little something.
I think I'd prefer to see less flux than more damage though, as it's more of a continuous fire than a burst weapon.
Or range. Giving it a little edge there might be something to consider. Even an extra 50 would be nice.
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Megas

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Re: Buff the Medium Energy Slot
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2023, 06:20:49 AM »

Changing the damage type for Mining Blaster is something that would need to be given some careful consideration.
It is the only non-pd weapon in the base_bp group that has energy damage, and removing that could make quite a difference as you'd no longer have a (semi) useful weapon to put in energy slots that can actually hurt shields.
The Mining Blaster, like many of the things people complain about being "not the best and therefore useless" is designed as a fallback option for a faction that doesn't have access to anything.
That is the player early in the game.  Apogee needs something in its large gun to kill enemies.  Mining blaster works, even if it is inferior to other options.  Also, high-tech stations with only base_dp available (like the player's) will be loaded with mining blasters.  I have been a few fights against pirates attacking my high-tech orbital station before I found any blueprints.

I can't say I like phase ships all that much, but I have used a Harbinger with Mining Blasters before. And it worked a lot better than I expected it to (caveat - this was before phase ships became self-immobilising, so it may not work the same now).
The biggest nerf to Harbinger was the system change - one charge with long recharge delay that needs Neural Link and two linked Harbingers to partially fix, and overload duration might have been reverted to nearly no delay like when Harbinger had synergies for Reapers.  And the "self-immobilizing" wrecked AI Harbinger, which still tries to get behind the enemy but fails spectacularly and wastes too much time (and PPT) in the process.  Harbinger is trash in this release.  Without Neural Link and two linked Harbingers, Harbinger practically has "No System".  It can punch down without its system, but that makes Harbinger an overpriced Vanguard wannabe for the flagship only.

I don't really have a strong opinion on the Heavy Burst, as it's not something I've ever had much cause to use.
Light Bursts + beams seem to do just fine for pd. And only the rather uncommon medium synergy mounts would require its use if you had to have pd there.
They're also incredibly hard to find if you rely on salvage - easily one of the rarest weapons in the entire game.
Railguns and burst PD are rare enough that I only have enough of them after I get the blueprint and can mass produce them.  As soon as I get the blueprint, I start ordering dozens of them immediately from my Orbital Works.

I expect LG's kinetic blaster to be even rarer than that, and it may not have a blueprint to mass produce them.  If so, I do not care if it gets stepped on by a buffed pulse laser.

The Pulse Laser could do with a little something.
I think I'd prefer to see less flux than more damage though, as it's more of a continuous fire than a burst weapon.
Or range. Giving it a little edge there might be something to consider. Even an extra 50 would be nice.
If ePD stays as it is, that is a very good idea.  ePD+IPDAI IR PL has not broken anything, aside from making every other medium energy weapon obsolete for shield cracking for ships with ePD.  Pulse Laser could get more efficiency like every other pulse laser of other sizes and/or maybe +50 or +100 more range.  Still not as good as ePD+IPDAI IR PL, but at least it costs less to get.
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Shinr

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Re: Buff the Medium Energy Slot
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2023, 10:59:07 PM »

https://twitter.com/amosolov/status/1612948304157110273

Quote
Trying out a redesign of the Mining Blaster - a high-explosive (anti-armor) burst weapon, with much better flux efficiency.

Feels pretty good so far; not sure if the current stats are over-tuned or not. It's a lot of burst damage, but also: still just 500 range!



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BaBosa

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Re: Buff the Medium Energy Slot
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2023, 12:18:24 AM »

Between this and the kinetic blaster I think Alex is onto a solution for medium energy’s. Having the all of the damage types means we can have damage and efficiency now. We’ll have to see how they shake out though.
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Grievous69

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Re: Buff the Medium Energy Slot
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2023, 12:33:36 AM »

I really wouldn't count LG weapons as standard ones, since from what we heard, they'll take a while to get to and then farm. But really liking this change, this now means Pulse Laser is the basic one (it's on open market right?).

Although I'm curious how this will affect the Phase Lance, since the two weapons seem to have a very similar role. Mining Blaster might be even better since the description says it doesn't shoot at shields.
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BCS

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Re: Buff the Medium Energy Slot
« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2023, 01:01:32 AM »

I like it, it certainly fits that a mining tool would be more effective against armor. Because rocks are... hard... yeah.

But more importantly, the entire LG lineup is getting their own ship variants? And what is the topmost built-in hullmod?
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Grievous69

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Re: Buff the Medium Energy Slot
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2023, 01:12:25 AM »

And what is the topmost built-in hullmod?
Energy bolt coherer, the thing that gives bonus range to non beam energy weapons. That is really cool on Brawler imo.
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