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Author Topic: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs  (Read 14786 times)

Nia Tahl

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #165 on: January 28, 2023, 01:50:32 PM »

So the reality here is that the build-in debuffs are overall fairly minor and also entirely optional. You can still chose to just not build-in heavy armor or EMR. You're simply trading a small amount of OP to not get the debuff.

It's simply impractical to take these very high cost hullmods as the baseline for S-mod value since they are very much the exception rather than the rule. The ideal baseline is almost certain ITU, given it is an essential hullmod for cruisers and capitals to be combat effective in most cases. It also isn't a hullmod you'd want to give S-mod benefits to given it is already a gamechanger for certain classes of ships.

I frankly much prefer it if building in HA is actually a choice rather than the automatic option for anything that isn't hightech. We are hardly entering massive spreadsheet optimisation territory here, but there's actually build choice now. The way I see it, the dislike for potential S-mod penalties is just the typical reaction of people to any kind of nerf to anything they like. It's a rather silly clinging to power they feel entitled to.

More build diversity is good, more genuine choices for S-modding is brilliant and I simply can't see any real reason against it beyond "I don't like being a little less powerful"
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bob888w

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #166 on: January 29, 2023, 12:59:16 AM »

[quote author=Nia Tahl link=topic=25852.msg386726#msg386726 date=1674942632
I frankly much prefer it if building in HA is actually a choice rather than the automatic option for anything that isn't hightech. We are hardly entering massive spreadsheet optimisation territory here, but there's actually build choice now. The way I see it, the dislike for potential S-mod penalties is just the typical reaction of people to any kind of nerf to anything they like. It's a rather silly clinging to power they feel entitled to.

More build diversity is good, more genuine choices for S-modding is brilliant and I simply can't see any real reason against it beyond "I don't like being a little less powerful"
[/quote]

But I'd argue lowtech in general needs heavy armor, and if possible IM and PA in order to function, while high-tech just requires a good shield flux ratio (already part of most high-tech ships) and fieldmoudulation being optional.
By making the heavy armor debuff apply only if smodding, means most lowtech ships are effectively short 20-40OP now, lowering build diversity
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llama

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #167 on: January 29, 2023, 01:49:57 AM »

By making the heavy armor debuff apply only if smodding, means most lowtech ships are effectively short 20-40OP now, lowering build diversity

20-40 OP? I think you're missing the fact that you still get to s-mod another hullmod, potentially the most expensive non-s-modded hullmod. So you're only losing 5/15 OP (cruiser/cap), since the built-ins will be balanced around providing ITU-level value (15/25), which seems like a fair trade for the base heavy armor buff.
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Haresus

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #168 on: January 29, 2023, 04:15:38 AM »

By making the heavy armor debuff apply only if smodding, means most lowtech ships are effectively short 20-40OP now, lowering build diversity

20-40 OP? I think you're missing the fact that you still get to s-mod another hullmod, potentially the most expensive non-s-modded hullmod. So you're only losing 5/15 OP (cruiser/cap), since the built-ins will be balanced around providing ITU-level value (15/25), which seems like a fair trade for the base heavy armor buff.

I guess the question is if a 5/15 OP nerf for these lowtech ships will be a good change or not. In an ideal universe people will just try to come up with a new wacky non-HA build, but I think it's more likely that players cut corners to afford HA anyway. Hard to tell at this stage though.
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Grievous69

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #169 on: January 29, 2023, 05:06:21 AM »

Listen to this genius idea. Have the Auxiliary Thrusters bonus when s-modded grant bonus armour, that way a low tech ship can build in both hullmods without any weaknesses and still remain with a sane build. I'll await for my Nobel prize.

On a serious note, I suppose Auxiliary Thrusters won't have any bonus since it's not a cheap mod, even though it's nothing flashy.
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vladokapuh

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #170 on: January 29, 2023, 06:50:18 AM »

i consider thrusters to be a rather overpriced hullmod anyways
i would not mind if it was made cheaper and was granted a bonus if smodded
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bob888w

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #171 on: January 29, 2023, 03:16:06 PM »

By making the heavy armor debuff apply only if smodding, means most lowtech ships are effectively short 20-40OP now, lowering build diversity

20-40 OP? I think you're missing the fact that you still get to s-mod another hullmod, potentially the most expensive non-s-modded hullmod. So you're only losing 5/15 OP (cruiser/cap), since the built-ins will be balanced around providing ITU-level value (15/25), which seems like a fair trade for the base heavy armor buff.

I guess it depends how good the boost is. The HRS bonus doesn't look great, but the advanced gyros look decent
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Doctorhealsgood

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #172 on: January 29, 2023, 09:30:46 PM »

By making the heavy armor debuff apply only if smodding, means most lowtech ships are effectively short 20-40OP now, lowering build diversity

20-40 OP? I think you're missing the fact that you still get to s-mod another hullmod, potentially the most expensive non-s-modded hullmod. So you're only losing 5/15 OP (cruiser/cap), since the built-ins will be balanced around providing ITU-level value (15/25), which seems like a fair trade for the base heavy armor buff.

I guess it depends how good the boost is. The HRS bonus doesn't look great, but the advanced gyros look decent
What does the HRS smod upgrade do exactly? I don't quite get it.
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Jackundor

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #173 on: January 29, 2023, 11:29:21 PM »

Is the base Heavy Armor hullmod being Debuffed? Or only the S-modded version?
Actually, it seems like non S-modded HA is getting buffed by having the negative entirely moved to the smodded version.
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SapphireSage

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #174 on: January 30, 2023, 07:07:56 AM »

What does the HRS smod upgrade do exactly? I don't quite get it.

Unless it's been changed, it would increase the combat vision radius (how far the ship can see in combat) for the ship its attached to. For a fleet, its typically a non-thing unless you wanna see when and what enemy reinforcements arrived but haven't pushed the enemy to their reinforcement zone yet and don't have any fast flankers but otherwise its best use might be built-in on Solo ships for in-combat information if it weren't for the fact that solo ships tend to want to squeeze out as much combat performance as they can.
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Megas

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #175 on: January 30, 2023, 09:43:08 AM »

Unless it's been changed, it would increase the combat vision radius (how far the ship can see in combat) for the ship its attached to. For a fleet, its typically a non-thing unless you wanna see when and what enemy reinforcements arrived but haven't pushed the enemy to their reinforcement zone yet and don't have any fast flankers but otherwise its best use might be built-in on Solo ships for in-combat information if it weren't for the fact that solo ships tend to want to squeeze out as much combat performance as they can.
Yes, I agree.  With the range of most weapons, adding more vision would probably be a debuff because the user would need to stay further away from the enemy to avoid PPT/CR countdown.  Maybe it would be handy for carriers or MIRV users that do have weapons (or fighters) with long enough attack range.  For conventional ships, less vision would be a buff by requiring less distance from enemies to avoid the doom clocks.

Now if we had more truly long-range weapons that are easy to use like 2500+ range Tachyon Lance from years ago, then more vision would be good.
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Alex

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #176 on: January 30, 2023, 09:57:01 AM »

adding more vision would probably be a debuff because the user would need to stay further away from the enemy to avoid PPT/CR countdown

(The PPT etc range is equal to the default vision range, not based on it.)
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Rusty Edge

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #177 on: January 30, 2023, 01:21:20 PM »

Is the base Heavy Armor hullmod being Debuffed? Or only the S-modded version?
Actually, it seems like non S-modded HA is getting buffed by having the negative entirely moved to the smodded version.
So, if I want a HA ship with a lot of mobility, I'll eat the cost, and I can S-mod it if I want a long range HA build.

Alternatively, I could still S-mod it, then use handy features like Auxiliary Thrusters, Helmsmanship and Elite Impact mitigation if I want to have my cake and eat it.
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Doctorhealsgood

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #178 on: January 30, 2023, 04:57:42 PM »

Is the base Heavy Armor hullmod being Debuffed? Or only the S-modded version?
Actually, it seems like non S-modded HA is getting buffed by having the negative entirely moved to the smodded version.
I thought HA got its penalty reduced when not S-Modded a bit and it gets higher when it is
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Midnight Kitsune

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #179 on: January 31, 2023, 03:22:07 PM »

I thought HA got its penalty reduced when not S-Modded a bit and it gets higher when it is
It is going from a 10% penalty now to 0% when not S modded and a whopping 25% when S modded...
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