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Author Topic: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs  (Read 14268 times)

intrinsic_parity

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #105 on: January 09, 2023, 10:56:44 AM »

I've always wanted to have a stripped down executable version of the combat sim (no visuals, not time-constrained i.e. runs as fast as it can compute), where you can just input some ships/loadouts and get results (time to complete, damage dealt by each weapon, final hull/armor states etc., could have more advanced results like time series as well). That would make large scale testing a lot easier IMO. You pick a set of 'standard' ships and loadouts that you want as a baseline to balance around, and then run a bunch of sims with the new/updated ships/weapons against the baseline and see if things are over/underperforming.

Obviously it wouldn't be a 'hit button to test everything' solution. You still have to determine what the results should be if things are balanced, and you would still want to do normal testing in the sim to visually diagnose issues you find, but it seems like it would be a time-efficient first pass for balancing, and very useful for a whole host of other things as well. The current system of running the combat sim (or a fulls scale combat in-game) manually over and over seems horribly inefficient.
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Jackundor

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #106 on: January 09, 2023, 12:14:24 PM »

...that idea wouldn't work
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Rusty Edge

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #107 on: January 09, 2023, 01:27:09 PM »

Here's hoping that one of the lower teir defensive hullmods (blast doors, insulated assembly, ect) will act as a lower teir Rugged Construction when S-modded in.
 There are some destroyers that pair well with Vangards, and I enjoy the reckless playstyle.
 Or perhaps one might reduce casualties if the ship gets disabled.

 Narratively, with optional debuffs attached to certain hullmods, this does allow you to tinker around with your ships a lot like pirates do.
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gG_pilot

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #108 on: January 09, 2023, 03:12:26 PM »

I just don't like the idea of s-mod penalties. S-modding shouldn't make things worse, it feels bad conceptually. Top tier hullmods could use no bonus instead, and everything else get bumped up accordingly.
The game  is a bit complicated already, regarding numbers.  Dev intetionaly hid most of  them to make game less intimidating,  hopefuly we  have mods like TIMID - Too much info, to reveal them again.
Well,  The crrent idea presented on twitter, : Look I am Adding more bonuses from bonuses to fix the S-mode which is a bonus,  but doesnt work well. Sounds a bit over the  top.
Also it means, that thosee bonuses bring a *** load numbers to combine with other numbers, (some of which are not visible, even with mods (yes, Menuver bonuses are not properly visible eeveen with TIMID mod, it is some kind of bug, or perhaps those bonuses do not work, I dont know) ), which creates new balance issues, which will  be fixed by ... try to guess ... yes  thats  right >>> MOAR bonuses.

Simple solution,  make s-mod worth of 40 OP. This bonus comes only with a hull  mode installed.
Price of the hullmode instaled is substracted from S-mode OP bonus, then rest is  added  to the ship budget.
e.i. Idea is, every s-mode has  the same  OP worth.
the most expensive mod. Armor (40  OP) installed as s.mode ads  zero OP.
gyros  for 10 OP installed as  S-mode  ads another 30 OP
ECM for 20 OP installed as S-mode ads 20 OP

You see the patern. Simple equasion, no balance issues. Basicaly it levels things out, allowing install s-mode early in game without wrong feeling : " I cripple my ship, wasted s- point,  because I still dont have the most expensive hullmod."
This feeling is THE PROBLEM. So, rather  fix the one problem, then create tons of new problems.
----------------------------------------------------
EDIT: Becouse of wide OP  range of hullmodes, a simple one line rules can be added, max OP worth s-moded  hulmode is 25. (capital size).
Then we get two lines of understandable rules which fiix things, without cause havoc. :
1. every s-mode has  the same  OP worth 25  (when hullmode is cheaper then rest of OP is added as to thee ship budget)
2. max OP worth s-moded  hullmode is 25 (more expensive hulmode canot be s-moded; plain general rule)

(OP prices  are for capital  size, smaller ship sizes has smaller limits  accordingly)
----------------------------------------------------
Current game is  in development, but his popularity is mainly becouse of mods. Refactoring  all hullmods means that all the mods which hullmodees will turn into nonsense. I would realy reccomend Mr. Alex, reconsider some simple solution which allows use all curent mods without change.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2023, 03:37:09 AM by gG_pilot »
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Haresus

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #109 on: January 09, 2023, 03:40:35 PM »

... for the OP difference that S-point hull mods are supposed to ignore...

Ah - they're not supposed to! In the current version, it's meant to be balanced out by you getting more bonus XP for building in hullmods that cost less OP. To put it mildly, though, that doesn't work out in practice. (In the new system, you get a flat 75/50/25/0% bonus XP per hullmod, depending on the size of the hull.)

That's true, I forgot about that. I do like the new/upcoming incentive to S-mod frigates and smaller ships, that'll create some potentially interesting choices early on.
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Schwartz

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #110 on: January 10, 2023, 09:09:23 AM »

1. every s-mode has  the same  OP worth 25  (when hullmode is cheaper then rest of OP is added as to thee ship budget)
2. max OP worth s-moded  hullmode is 25 (more expensive hulmode canot be s-moded; plain general rule)

(OP prices  are for capital  size, smaller ship sizes has smaller limits  accordingly)

Some interesting ideas there. It could be tried. Generally I get the feeling this change is trying to compensate for problems that are already very small. Since SS is a singleplayer game, there is always the luxury of just leaving it be and not having everything be the exact same power level as everything else. This may "feel wrong" but overbalancing tends to result in weird appendixes (as in, the bodypart) to existing systems.

I'll offer an option #3: Every story point added to a ship just increases the ship's OP by 10/15/20 whatever is the correct number for its size. That's it. No more S-Mods. With the same SP limits as before. Could also pay a single SP to add a bonus effect to one of the ship's hullmods.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2023, 09:14:01 AM by Schwartz »
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BaBosa

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #111 on: January 10, 2023, 09:30:49 PM »

Alex has already said why he doesn’t want to make s-mods just add OP and I agree with him.

I've thought about this, but that's - well, it'd work, but I think it's a bit boring - it would make "what to build in" irrelevant provided you were certain about the set of hullmods you wanted on the ship. At that point, it'd be simpler to have the SP give you a flat amount of OP; it'd amount to the same thing. Which, I'm aware has been suggested, but I don't think it makes for any interesting decisions!

If you still want more OP, that wouldn’t be hard to mod in, especially once the next update drops. Just make a new hullmod that does nothing normally but when it’s s-modded in, it adds OP.
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CapnHector

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #112 on: January 10, 2023, 09:54:57 PM »

Given that there are lots of negative opinions on added complexity in this thread let me also state the opposite viewpoint that I think the game could do with more complexity and choices. After a while you currently hit an optimum build where it's pointless to experiment more, and it would be nice to have more things to try out. S-mods as they are are very simple buffs to a ship and could stand to be more complex.

I'm not a game designer or anything but as for those concerns, I don't think this will compete for the Call of Duty audience but rather an indie crowd that likes complex rules already. Else they'll stop at the tutorial.
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prav

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #113 on: January 10, 2023, 11:49:28 PM »

Don't mistake complexity for depth. Chess has simple rules.
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smithney

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #114 on: January 11, 2023, 07:26:26 AM »

Yeah I'd like to second CapnHector's opinion. Starsector isn't actually all that complex and the kind of complexity we're talking about isn't one that would bore the player or limit meaningful choices. I mean if the player doesn't overthink it, they can just test the hullmods by trial and error without losing much progress.
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gG_pilot

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #115 on: January 11, 2023, 08:51:07 AM »

1. every s-mode has  the same  OP worth 25  (when hullmode is cheaper then rest of OP is added as to thee ship budget)
2. max OP worth s-moded  hullmode is 25 (more expensive hulmode canot be s-moded; plain general rule)

(OP prices  are for capital  size, smaller ship sizes has smaller limits  accordingly)

Some interesting ideas there. It could be tried. Generally I get the feeling this change is trying to compensate for problems that are already very small. Since SS is a singleplayer game, there is always the luxury of just leaving it be and not having everything be the exact same power level as everything else. This may "feel wrong" but overbalancing tends to result in weird appendixes (as in, the bodypart) to existing systems.

I'll offer an option #3: Every story point added to a ship just increases the ship's OP by 10/15/20 whatever is the correct number for its size. That's it. No more S-Mods. With the same SP limits as before. Could also pay a single SP to add a bonus effect to one of the ship's hullmods.
Well  those two  lines marked by numbers, are meant use together as one rule. It is not one OR another. It is both OR nothing.
Which means, your option #3 is actually #2  :-)
« Last Edit: January 11, 2023, 08:54:25 AM by gG_pilot »
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Doctorhealsgood

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #116 on: January 12, 2023, 04:22:51 AM »

I have no idea what gG_pilot is talking about.
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Psigun

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #117 on: January 12, 2023, 06:51:43 PM »

I like it because it makes optimizing built-in mods more diversified. In the current game version it's always like... ITU, Heavy Armor, Hardened Shields, etc.

If we get buffs on cheaper hull mods, and debuffs on the costlier ones, we will be pushed to mix builds up. More options are good for players.
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Embolism

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #118 on: January 12, 2023, 08:18:43 PM »

I like it in terms of it adding more interesting effects to hullmods rather than it being a balancing mechanism. Which makes me sad that S-mod effects won't apply to normal built-in hullmods like HRS on the Apogee, it feels... wrong that the dedicated sensor ships are worse than the player's Protagonist(tm) jury-rigged ships at sensoring (and whatever else might be built-in and missing out on bonuses).
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Wyvern

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #119 on: January 12, 2023, 09:05:27 PM »

Which makes me sad that S-mod effects won't apply to normal built-in hullmods like HRS on the Apogee, it feels... wrong that the dedicated sensor ships are worse than the player's Protagonist(tm) jury-rigged ships at sensoring (and whatever else might be built-in and missing out on bonuses).
Yeah, this. I mean, I can see built-ins getting extra penalties relative to s-mods for things like Luddic Path ships, or poorly-maintained pirates, but it feels like "missing s-mod bonus effects" should be a d-mod that you can restore off of things...
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Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.
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