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Author Topic: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs  (Read 12438 times)

vladokapuh

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2023, 12:53:50 AM »

just having story points add X OP to the ships, depending on size, would be simpler and easier to work with
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Cabbage

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2023, 01:44:04 AM »

S-mods already had associated cost(SP and opportunity cost) and now there's extra cost on top of that. This is getting weird and really complicated. No one likes exceptions on top of exceptions.
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Strict

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2023, 02:02:19 AM »

we are finally getting closer to the idea that s-mods/story points are bad in general, not only for balancing, after a few patches we can get back to loadout design or nothing at all, its actually great
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braciszek

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2023, 02:18:19 AM »

If the notion is a blanket negative effect above a certain OP cost, then we would be nerfing hullmods because some smods save more OP than others, rather than some hullmods are better than others. That is, a hullmod being more expensive doesn't necessarily mean it is better and the new incentive is based around OP savings rather than hullmod viability. Operations center is a mediocre hullmod, but it costs quite a bit of OP so it likely gets nothing. It gets nothing not because it doesn't deserve a bonus but because it's expensive. I don't necessarily agree with that decision as hullmod balance isn't perfect itself and we are building another system of balancing on top of it. Now this example is just an assumption, but the tone of this change seems to be based around cost and not performance. If there is an smod bonus for this example in reality, then that would be contrary to the original intention.
Otherwise, I argue that perhaps some hullmods' effects and their costs should be looked at before they are given some smod effect based on their current cost...
« Last Edit: January 06, 2023, 03:01:17 AM by braciszek »
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Fotsvamp

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2023, 03:35:26 AM »

I think it could be fun, since it seems everyone is always putting in S-mods (myself included) doing something to promote other behaviour is good for variety.

It would be even neater if there were more things that start off as a negative, but in the right hands could be good (like AI conserving ammo longer with lower missile RoF). Or a long range gun getting shorter range to make more weapons into a single range bracket improving AI flux management etc.
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SCC

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2023, 03:51:14 AM »

If you wanted a PD bonus, wouldn't you simply built in IPDAI instead of gyros?

prav

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2023, 04:01:57 AM »

If you wanted a PD bonus, wouldn't you simply built in IPDAI instead of gyros?

Maybe S-IPDAI improves turret turn rate.
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Grievous69

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2023, 04:32:30 AM »

just having story points add X OP to the ships, depending on size, would be simpler and easier to work with
Pretty much. This feels like trying to put out a dumpster fire with a Rube Goldberg machine that happened because of another overcomplicated system which will probably introduce another dumpster fire.

Imagine when players figure out the new meta for these bonus hullmods. We're back at square one only with a more complex game and wasted time.

EDIT: It's paradoxical when developers try to fight min maxing by adding another mechanic which will get, wait for it, min maxed as well.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2023, 04:37:37 AM by Grievous69 »
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BCS

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2023, 04:33:57 AM »

I think it could be fun, since it seems everyone is always putting in S-mods (myself included) doing something to promote other behaviour is good for variety.

Giving downsides to S-modded hullmods won't stop you from using them since at the end of the day it's just free OP. You'll always be better off using S-mods than not using them.

The change may make you think twice which hullmods to build in instead of always going for the most expensive option but without a full list of downsides it's impossible to tell. And the be honest I doubt it would work like that in general, you build in most expensive hullmods to save most OP, doing the opposite kind of defeats the point. People will probably just eat the penalty.

Basically all I see here is a nerf to the player fleet(since enemy ships very rarely have S-mods)
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Grievous69

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2023, 04:35:50 AM »

Basically all I see here is a nerf to the player fleet(since enemy ships very rarely have S-mods)
Don't forget that special hard bounty with all s-modded ships which will also be weaker (but not easier obviously). Wooo hoooo
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Schwartz

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2023, 07:44:19 AM »

EDIT: It's paradoxical when developers try to fight min maxing by adding another mechanic which will get, wait for it, min maxed as well.

I think fringe min-maxing should simply not be nerfed out of the game at all, as it hurts people who play normally as well. It's a singleplayer game and there is no pressure to keep everything perfectly even keel.

When officers were new, they were way OP and produced crazy maneuverability and other buffs on their ships. We also had plenty of OP and other stat bonuses in the skill tree. This was overpowered but fun. Arguably it became frustrating when trying to take out certain ship/officer enemy combos.

Now the power ceiling is way, way lower and still we're getting nerfs to the S-Mod system, even though it is itself a lower-power replacement of the previous bonus system. I don't see why it needs this nerf and I'll probably try to mod it out of my game if it happens. I don't need my Annihilator racks to fire at half RoF and make it impossible to actually empty themselves over the course of an engagement.
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FooF

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2023, 08:29:01 AM »

While I think the additional debuffs around the expensive hullmods are getting all the attention, I’d be more curious what the added bonuses are for the “lesser” hullmods. Also, it will be trivial to reduce the malus on certain things if balance calls for it (would there be this much weeping and gnashing of teeth if EMR debuff was -10% RoF?)

Knee-jerk reactions aside, I need to see the whole picture before making judgement. If anything, +25% to Frigates is a bigger deal than EMR nerfs. As far as I remember, nothing in the game increases damage to Frigates. That means Capitals can now swat down smaller ships easier for little OP cost. Why isn’t that getting more attention?
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prav

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #27 on: January 06, 2023, 08:36:54 AM »

(would there be this much weeping and gnashing of teeth if EMR debuff was -10% RoF?)

Maybe not, but why add a bunch of negligible effects? That's just clutter.

If anything, +25% to Frigates is a bigger deal than EMR nerfs. As far as I remember, nothing in the game increases damage to Frigates. That means Capitals can now swat down smaller ships easier for little OP cost. Why isn’t that getting more attention?

And at a net cost of... 9 OP on a Cruiser, compared to just S-modding ITU? That's a pretty good deal. Really it's two hullmods in one, an S-mod and a regular hullmod, welded together for reasons somewhat unclear.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2023, 08:40:51 AM by prav »
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Drazan

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2023, 08:38:22 AM »

-50% missile ROF seems like a very high penalty for saving 5 OP (cruiser size). I'm assuming that, say, ITU, won't have any penalties and you can just S-mod that instead.

It seems to be ridiculusly overtuned, halving missile rof practically makes this mod unusable with while built in.
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Drazan

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2023, 08:45:12 AM »

This is just another mechanic needlesly complicating an already complicated game.
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