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Author Topic: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs  (Read 10844 times)

Sorbo

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I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« on: January 05, 2023, 07:20:58 PM »



Looks like top tier ones are getting debuffs and I'm not really a fan of that. Missile racks in particular was one of my favorites on Gryphons. That rate of fire debuff kills my missile specialization elite, pretty nasty.

Stated goals are "variety in what gets built-in (not "always most expensive", and more ship loadout options". I dunno feels like a club way of achieving this. Add buffs to all build-in hull mods, with low tier giving high bonuses, mid something minor and high tier giving nothing extra at all.
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prav

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2023, 07:27:29 PM »

If you don't like the penalty you can just build in a cheaper mod and pay some OP for the difference.
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SafariJohn

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2023, 07:53:45 PM »

I would guess that part of Alex's reasoning in doing bonus-nothing-penalty is that there are only a couple high OP hullmods so their penalties can be tailored to change up how they work. For example, somebody pointed out on Twitter that a RoF penalty could be exploited to help AIs conserve missile ammo.

Here's hoping Heavy Armor's penalty is not yet another boring mobility/maneuverability nerf.
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Wyvern

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2023, 08:03:11 PM »

I'm worried about Hardened Shield - it got nerfed last patch, with no matching reduction in OP cost, making it only worth using with s-modding (or on ships that just have oodles of OP, like the Paragon)... but I'll bet it's getting an extra nerf to being s-modded, because it's still one of the highest OP-cost hullmods...

On the plus side, maybe Heavy Armor's maneuverability penalty will get moved to 'only if you s-mod it'?
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Spacer Heater

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2023, 08:27:13 PM »

Missile racks in particular was one of my favorites on Gryphons.

Alex said that ships that come with built-ins (not smods) won't receive the penalties. So your gryphons will be unaffected at least. I'm not glad to see the penalties personally, but I understand why they're being added.

I just hope that the high res sensors effect gets changed. Unless the increased vision range grants the AI to make better decisions or something else that I'm not seeing, it seems like a waste of a story point to me. I'd rather see a paltry bonus to weapon range (5,10%?)  since it's the opposite to glitched sensor array. That or a slight increase to missile speed/maneuverability since the sensors helps breakthrough enemy ECM or something. Probably good reasons why neither of these were the case though
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Timid

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2023, 08:33:06 PM »

I just hope that the high res sensors effect gets changed. Unless the increased vision range grants the AI to make better decisions or something else that I'm not seeing, it seems like a waste of a story point to me. I'd rather see a paltry bonus to weapon range (5,10%?)  since it's the opposite to glitched sensor array. That or a slight increase to missile speed/maneuverability since the sensors helps breakthrough enemy ECM or something. Probably good reasons why neither of these were the case though
My guess is that the next update will finally give us an opportunity to flank the enemy from the sides (as the engine supports it right now) and the increased line of sight will help with finding certain annoying ships.

Right now the point where you can flank the enemy is when you can just auto-resolve it.

Sorbo

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2023, 08:39:12 PM »

Alex said that ships that come with built-ins (not smods) won't receive the penalties. So your gryphons will be unaffected at least. I'm not glad to see the penalties personally, but I understand why they're being added.
Yeah you're right, but I kinda wanted to replace them with new missile cap ship. Do they also come with them preinstalled? Judging by the screenshot it doesn't seem so.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2023, 08:42:40 PM by Sorbo »
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Spacer Heater

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2023, 08:45:14 PM »

My guess is that the next update will finally give us an opportunity to flank the enemy from the sides (as the engine supports it right now) and the increased line of sight will help with finding certain annoying ships.

Right now the point where you can flank the enemy is when you can just auto-resolve it.

That sounds really cool actually. Right now I have fog of war disabled lol, but if something like this was implemented I'd def turn it back on.

 Do they also come with them preinstalled? Judging by the screenshot it doesn't seem so.

Yeah, seems like not. At least its got a lot of OP.
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prav

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2023, 08:59:44 PM »

-50% missile ROF seems like a very high penalty for saving 5 OP (cruiser size). I'm assuming that, say, ITU, won't have any penalties and you can just S-mod that instead.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2023, 09:01:25 PM by prav »
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Amoebka

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2023, 09:44:22 PM »

I just don't like the idea of s-mod penalties. S-modding shouldn't make things worse, it feels bad conceptually. Top tier hullmods could use no bonus instead, and everything else get bumped up accordingly.
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Dri

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2023, 09:57:54 PM »

I just don't like the idea of s-mod penalties. S-modding shouldn't make things worse, it feels bad conceptually. Top tier hullmods could use no bonus instead, and everything else get bumped up accordingly.
I'd be more keen on that too, but there are a lot of hullmods and it is already rather crazy that Alex is slapping another significant layer of combat balancing/tweaking onto the pile.
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Embolism

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2023, 10:34:57 PM »

I hope built-in hullmods like sensor array on the Apogee gets the S-mod bonus. Otherwise you get the weird situation with the Venture where having something built-in locks you out of getting something better (Venture can't use converted hangars because it already has a *** mining drone - it really should be able to use it to get rid of the drones for something else).
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Shinr

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2023, 11:39:46 PM »

Now that BDSM-style S-Mod buffs/maluses are now on the table, how about looking into making S-modding not completely refund the OP costs as an alternative to the maluses, or even getting rid of OP refund mechanic altogether and making the buffs the main incentive for s-modding (assuming that in that case all s-mods will give bonuses)?
« Last Edit: January 06, 2023, 12:04:41 AM by Shinr »
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Grievous69

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2023, 12:33:02 AM »

Ever since s-mods became a thing, I wasn't a huge fan. And now this change, my first reaction is also negative. I believe Alex will make things work in the end but here's my thoughts why this was too much spent dev time.

So, s-mods are basically old Loadout Design where they're meant to give your ships some extra power, just instead of adding pure OP points, you get those through free hullmods (that you can't remove). Which wasn't the most elegant idea, but hey it works. Now, there were discussions on how the most expensive hullmods always get built it. I understand those but since I always viewed it as just bonus OP, I felt it was fine. I mean you still had to think which specific hullmods you want forever.

Doing this bonus-nothing-penalty mumbo jumbo will increase the time in the refit screen big time. When in the end, the final product will remain pretty much the one you were going to build before this mechanic. Obviously with some bonuses and penalties on the side. The argument "if you don't want the penalty, build in something else" is sooo bad. So you want us to spend story points on something we DON'T want, so we can get something we DO want in the end. That sucks. Ok sure I'll s-mod ECCM instead of EMR, that's the solution. And it took who knows how much time to come up with all the bonuses and penalties.

Again, I understand why Alex is doing this, but it seems like an unnecessary mechanic just to get out more min maxing out of people. Although no point in arguing since it's coming in the next update, we can only hope it turns out fine.

Btw can't believe there's a problem with s-modded EMR and Heavy Armour while SO is still a thing in the game. The single most braindead part of the game.
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Sorbo

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2023, 12:40:12 AM »

I just don't like the idea of s-mod penalties. S-modding shouldn't make things worse, it feels bad conceptually. Top tier hullmods could use no bonus instead, and everything else get bumped up accordingly.
Pretty much how I feel. Like game punishes me for no reason.
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