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Author Topic: Give the pulse laser a bonus vs shields  (Read 4242 times)

Megas

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Re: Give the pulse laser a bonus vs shields
« Reply #45 on: December 25, 2022, 04:56:11 AM »

The only change I want to see to the pulse laser is... make it an actual laser! That's right, turn it into a crappy beam weapon.
Before the modern Phase Lance, the game had Phase Beam, which was about a double strength Tactical Laser with minor EMP damage (no arcing) and costs 12 OP.  It was Xyphos' original main weapon.

This was back when beams cost more OP (Tactical Laser was 5 OP), small and medium beams had less range (while HIL had 1200 and Tachyon had 2500+).  HIL also did 250 energy damage instead of 500 HE, which was underwhelming.
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Thaago

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Re: Give the pulse laser a bonus vs shields
« Reply #46 on: December 25, 2022, 10:35:51 AM »

In terms of 'sit on the line and fire a pulse laser' the Shrike is a rare ship that comes to mind because it has the flux and slots to be using pulse laser + am blaster/ion cannon (Goumindong mentioned this in their original post) and because the AI uses its system to move in, not move out.
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Goumindong

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Re: Give the pulse laser a bonus vs shields
« Reply #47 on: December 25, 2022, 11:39:09 AM »

It’s still a “punch down” destroyer or “swarmer” though at its heart. It can utilize a PL because it’s got only one medium slot and can use smalls for AMB. But I wouldn’t want to utilize that as a “hold the line ship”. It’s got 350-550 / 245-445  flux dissipation(pre/post shield). Which can feel a tad low for a HB plus others. So you can still punch down/swarm with the PL. But even then you’re not firing your entire flux when you’re shooting just the PL unless you skimp on dissipation (which you maybe should do, I do not know)

It just does not have the range or the efficiency to stand up to a destroyer fit with kinetics. So it cannot “hold the line” at any point in the game.  Like. As much as people dislike the Eagle the Eagle does a really god job of both not dying and also putting out shield pressure on other ships. It’s kind of, but not quite an ideal “hold the line” ship. The purpose of which isn’t to kill anything but simply to tie up more than it’s DP with of enemies for long enough for the rest of your fleet to do things.

The shirke cannot do that. If you put it near the center of your formation unless you’re a lot stronger than the enemy fleet it’s going to be flattened

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Lortus

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Re: Give the pulse laser a bonus vs shields
« Reply #48 on: December 26, 2022, 12:27:24 AM »

Pulse Laser already has a (theoretical) niche of punching down on low armor ships. The only issue is that the gun is absolutely horrendous. Just buff the the thing from being the absolute death sentence of a 1:1 flux eff energy weapon to being actually efficient like it's smaller cousin. Problem solved of doing horrid damage and problem solved of not overfluxing everything that should be able to mount it.

This kinda steps on the toes of the kinetic thing though so I'd also buff the damage slightly while keeping the same dps and drop the flux/sec to 200-250 or so.
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Megas

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Re: Give the pulse laser a bonus vs shields
« Reply #49 on: December 26, 2022, 06:21:45 AM »

This kinda steps on the toes of the kinetic thing though so I'd also buff the damage slightly while keeping the same dps and drop the flux/sec to 200-250 or so.
I would not count Lion's Guard weapons if they are too hard to obtain.

At least Prometheus II blueprint could be dropped in salvage, or the ship ordered from some gunrunners if blueprint does not drop.  Lion's Guard tech may not even have that, which would make them no more common than Remnant fighters.  And farming Executors will hurt rep, which is another annoyance to deal with if I want to maintain some relations with Diktat.

Speaking of Remnants, Brilliant will lose its bay, so unless there are new Remnant variants with Converted Hangar, or Scintillas are present in every fleet, Remnant fighters will get rarer.
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Thaago

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Re: Give the pulse laser a bonus vs shields
« Reply #50 on: December 26, 2022, 10:26:48 PM »

Pulse Laser already has a (theoretical) niche of punching down on low armor ships. The only issue is that the gun is absolutely horrendous. Just buff the the thing from being the absolute death sentence of a 1:1 flux eff energy weapon to being actually efficient like it's smaller cousin. Problem solved of doing horrid damage and problem solved of not overfluxing everything that should be able to mount it.

This kinda steps on the toes of the kinetic thing though so I'd also buff the damage slightly while keeping the same dps and drop the flux/sec to 200-250 or so.

Why is 1:1 flux a death sentence? Especially in the case of "punching down" 1:1 flux is not a problem at all, or in situations where you have multiple ships swarming one target and swapping in/out (the ion pulser or heavy blaster are probably better weapons in the latter scenario tbh, but the point of 1:1 flux efficiency not being a death sentence there stands).

Several things about the gun are good: Its dps/OP and DPS/mount type, its accuracy/shot speed, and vs enemies where 100 shot size is enough being a "no win" gun like the plasma cannon is to bigger ships (pulse laser has better dps/OP and efficiency than a plasma cannon). Its main issue is that for many targets 100 shot size is not enough and it becomes 'ok vs hull, ok vs shields, bad vs armor' instead of 'good, ok, ok'.
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ForestFighters

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Re: Give the pulse laser a bonus vs shields
« Reply #51 on: December 26, 2022, 11:17:07 PM »

I think it the 1:1 flux is seen as a problem because the kinds of ships that want to use a pulse laser are mostly midline. High tech ships have the flux vents for better stuff like HBs and Ion Pulsers which have the burst DPS to punch through shields and then do something to the ship they hit, and take advantage of those ships' streigths.
Midline can't do that, and 1:1 trading against shields at shortish range with the pulse laser on ships that also have kinetic ballistic options that are at worst 0.66 (HVD) vs shields just isn't worth it. As anti-armor it is just not a good option, and anti-hull is most of the times not particularly important. Most ballistics are not generalist weapons, which means mixing them with pulse lasers just doesn't work that well.

300 DPS just isn't a whole lot vs shields, even the Arbalest does more than that while being cheaper OP and flux-wise. And just like kinetics, the pulse laser is not good at armor striping, although it is definitely better.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2022, 11:23:29 PM by ForestFighters »
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Megas

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Re: Give the pulse laser a bonus vs shields
« Reply #52 on: December 27, 2022, 06:35:13 AM »

I generally use Pulse Laser on high-tech because most cannot use kinetics or heavy energy weapons.  Midline that can use medium energy can also use ballistics or a heavy energy weapon.

On Sunder and Conquest, medium energy mounts are the first to be left empty if I need more OP for more important things or run out of dissipation to support more weapons.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2022, 07:42:09 AM by Megas »
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Goumindong

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Re: Give the pulse laser a bonus vs shields
« Reply #53 on: December 27, 2022, 08:35:38 PM »

I am starting to come around on the idea that it’s DPS/OP isn’t actually that good.

The arbalest has 334 DPS/8 OP at 700 range Vs shields. A heavy mortar has 440@440 Vs armor for 7 OP

The combination has 444 vs shields for 15 OP. 29.6 DPS/OP.

Now granted accuracy is a reasonable look but the pulse laser isn’t actually more efficient than the two weakest ballistic weapons in combination. And because armor is very fixed you can set efficiently by having generally more kinetic than HE rather than what was examined above. And those weapons are more efficient.


Light needlers are 37.5. Light autocannons are 50 and LDAC are 57.2. The HB is 41.66

So the pulse laser just isn’t providing quality DPS/OP. Certainly not quality punch down DPS OP especially because as a punch down ship you tend to have only a few medium energy slots. A single pulse laser on a shrike would be OK if enemy frigates tended to only have one single small ballistic. Two pulse lasers on a fury simply cannot cut it unless the capacitor advantage is absurdly huge.

Which is why the superior HB tends to be used. Much better DPS/OP. Functionally better or equivalent flux efficiency due to its much higher DPS/slot. 

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ForestFighters

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Re: Give the pulse laser a bonus vs shields
« Reply #54 on: December 27, 2022, 10:18:34 PM »

300 dps just isn't that good, especially on a weapon with short range and unimpressive efficiency.
More range or a decent efficiency boost would definitely help the pulse laser have a niche other than: "underwhelming general purpose weapon that is mostly for AI filler ships".

Giving it longer range might be an interesting option, making it still a generalist with mediocre stats, but at least one exceptional thing when compared to the other medium energies, which are either short ranged, or support beams. (and the phase lance, which is perfect where it is)
With its current range bracket, it is just an unappealing option when compared to the other short ranged medium energies.

Speaking of the phase lance, they share the same range bracket, and on the surface they would pair together well, with the pulse laser building hard flux and the lance bursting and tearing up hull.
Problem is, just grabbing one of each is 561 flux/s total, and 20 OP. You could get a single heavy blaster for only 12 OP. Yes, it is more flux, but you also have more OP to use for vents and caps and it is 100% hard flux anti-armor. And you get a free medium energy slot to put one of the many support options on. If the pulse laser was to keep it's current stats with no changes, it should probably have a decent OP cost drop to at least make it a budget option.
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prav

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Re: Give the pulse laser a bonus vs shields
« Reply #55 on: December 27, 2022, 10:55:11 PM »

double post
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prav

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Re: Give the pulse laser a bonus vs shields
« Reply #56 on: December 27, 2022, 10:56:01 PM »

Speaking of the phase lance, they share the same range bracket, and on the surface they would pair together well, with the pulse laser building hard flux and the lance bursting and tearing up hull.

I don't know about that - hardflux weapons and softflux weapons really work at cross purposes - one doesn't care much about softflux, and vice versa for hardflux. Better to go whole-hog.

Fully agreed that the Heavy Blaster a better deal though, or to put it in my own words, either undercosted or overperforming.
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Megas

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Re: Give the pulse laser a bonus vs shields
« Reply #57 on: December 28, 2022, 06:44:37 AM »

I am starting to come around on the idea that it’s DPS/OP isn’t actually that good.
I agree with this, but I suspect Pulse Laser costs 10 DP as part of the "energy is inferior to ballistics" idea.

Pulse Laser feels more like energy Arbalest or Heavy Mortar than energy HAC.


300 dps just isn't that good, especially on a weapon with short range and unimpressive efficiency.
More range or a decent efficiency boost would definitely help the pulse laser have a niche other than: "underwhelming general purpose weapon that is mostly for AI filler ships".

Giving it longer range might be an interesting option, making it still a generalist with mediocre stats, but at least one exceptional thing when compared to the other medium energies, which are either short ranged, or support beams. (and the phase lance, which is perfect where it is)
With its current range bracket, it is just an unappealing option when compared to the other short ranged medium energies.
More range would make Pulse Laser an alternative to ePD+IPDAI IR PLs.  Boosting one of efficiency or range only would still make it worse than ePD+IPDAI IR PLs.

Speaking of the phase lance, they share the same range bracket, and on the surface they would pair together well, with the pulse laser building hard flux and the lance bursting and tearing up hull.
Problem is, just grabbing one of each is 561 flux/s total, and 20 OP. You could get a single heavy blaster for only 12 OP. Yes, it is more flux, but you also have more OP to use for vents and caps and it is 100% hard flux anti-armor. And you get a free medium energy slot to put one of the many support options on. If the pulse laser was to keep it's current stats with no changes, it should probably have a decent OP cost drop to at least make it a budget option.
Phase Lance is a burst or strike weapon.  Pulse Laser is a steady-firing stream.  The ships I want to use Phase Lance on would not work well with Pulse Laser because of either Advanced Optics or (in case of phase ships with eFM) Phase Anchor.

Phase Lance is good because it is the best weapon for some ship classes.

If Pulse Laser, with no change to DPS or efficiency, is to be more competitive with ballistics, it probably should cost 8 OP.
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ForestFighters

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Re: Give the pulse laser a bonus vs shields
« Reply #58 on: December 28, 2022, 11:40:23 AM »

I agree with this, but I suspect Pulse Laser costs 10 DP as part of the "energy is inferior to ballistics" idea.
Weapon types should be tradeoffs, not just flat stronger or weaker. (Obviously excluding size)
Medium slot-wise:
Ballistics have excellent specialized options at every range but have no true general-purpose weapons (of course, kinetics basically fill that role).
Missiles are extremely powerful but have limited ammo.
And energy has beams that all have a good niche now with the graviton buff (excluding the HBL), and very strong short-range options that specifically focus on pressing flux advantages.

The pulse laser cannot push flux advantages like the sheer burst power of the Heavy Blaster or Ion Pulser and doesn't really do what beams do.
It wants to be a generalist medium range option, but that is such a good type of weapon that energy slots really want that it has been made very weak to prevent it from being super optimal on everything.
Making it actually a budget option lets it keep that role while still being able to be relatively weak, because at least it will be priced appropriately.
At least then it can actually fill the "filler weapon" role well.

Phase Lance is a burst or strike weapon.  Pulse Laser is a steady-firing stream.  The ships I want to use Phase Lance on would not work well with Pulse Laser because of either Advanced Optics or (in case of phase ships with eFM) Phase Anchor.
Yeah, the Pulse Laser + Phase Lance combo is very much one that only exists when you look at it in a vacuum.
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: Give the pulse laser a bonus vs shields
« Reply #59 on: December 28, 2022, 12:12:26 PM »

Out of curiosity, has anyone done or seen an analysis of the efficiency benefits of the Pulse Laser accuracy compared to say, those Arbalests and Heavy Mortars?  Even Heavy Needlers and Heavy Autocannons?  Similar to what is being done in the Conquest simulation thread?

I just opened the Random Battle mission, equipped a HAC and Heavy Mortar on an Enforcer and took it against the sim Lasher, just by eye, it looks like a 50% hit rate for both, if not worse.  Take 2 Pulse Lasers and put them on a Medusa, and it was literally 100% hit rate.  Not a single pulse missed (although some where intercepted by harpoons).

Against small and agile targets, accuracy and turn rate matters far more than 10 or 20% flux/damage efficiency.  Even against something like a Hammerhead, you're going to be getting misses at longer ranges with a HAC or Heavy Mortar.

So for me, a Pulse Laser is an anti-small ship weapon as opposed to an anti-cruiser/capital weapon since it reliably hits fighters, frigates, and some fast destroyers within its range and has sufficient armor penetration to reasonably handle that tier of armor.  And it does it right out of the box, without skills, without hullmods, in missions as well as within the first encounter of the campaign.  The same cannot be said of Heavy Mortar.  Imagine putting a Heavy Mortar on a Shrike and trying to hit Pather Hounds early in the game. Or HACs.  Against large targets, this is less of a problem, although in player hands Pulse Lasers can drill the exact same spot on the armor, less so with most ballistics.

To bring the kinetics accuracy up, you often need to include armored weapon mounts and turret gyros, along with Gunnery Implants.  Elite Ballistics Mastery also helps with the projectile speed.

Pulse lasers, because of their innate accuracy, turn rate, projectile speed, and placement on faster ships means some of those support skills and hullmods don't provide nearly as much help as they do to the kinetics since they are already hitting.  On the other hand, that also means they don't need as much of that help.

So here is a question.  What skills or hullmod are suppose to help the medium energy projectile weapons in the same way the ballistics get helped out with their poor turn rates, their poor recoil accuracy, and poor shot speed?

Another way to look at it is to ask, what skills and hullmods could I have taken instead of elite point defense or elite ballistics mastery and turrget gyros and armored weapon mounts, to help Pulse lasers?  Doesn't help in the medium energy comparisons admittedly, but Pulse Lasers does fall into the hard flux energy mount that you can actually put on a Wolf or non-SO Shrike niche.

If you swap Elite Energy Weapon Mastery for Elite Point defense, and IPDAI for some vents/caps, then you're comparing range 700, 0.8 flux/damage efficiency, 19 DPS/OP for 4 IR Pulse Lasers on a Fury against range 600, perhaps 0.81 flux/damage efficiency, 30 DPS/OP (assuming +10% average damage bonus, -10% flux cost) on the same Fury.  50% more DPS per OP spent at a cost of 100 range and less anti-missile cover (which can either be good or bad depending on what the target is firing).

So I don't think it's a fair comparison to apply elite Point Defense + IPDAI to IR Pulse Lasers and give nothing to the Pulse Lasers.  Sure, you can get longer range, but on the other hand, adding elite Energy Weapon Mastery does make Pulse lasers much more flux/damage efficient.  At which point ePD + IPDAI still has the 100 range advantage (which is significant to be fair), but at an extra OP cost and a tendency to take a lot of pot shots at missiles instead of the primary ship target.

I would setup some tests of ePD + IR pulse Furies against eEWM + Pulse Laser Furies if I could figure out how to add campaign skills. Although, I suppose I could just mod the range, flux cost, and average damage for that test.

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