Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6

Author Topic: Give the pulse laser a bonus vs shields  (Read 4170 times)

FooF

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1378
    • View Profile
Re: Give the pulse laser a bonus vs shields
« Reply #30 on: December 23, 2022, 07:21:24 AM »

Even if we raised the Pulse Laser's damage/shot to 135-150, it's still vastly inferior to the Heavy Blaster's 500. Even with higher single-shot damage, the Pulse Laser is in absolutely no way in danger of usurping the Heavy Blaster.
Logged

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 12117
    • View Profile
Re: Give the pulse laser a bonus vs shields
« Reply #31 on: December 23, 2022, 07:44:55 AM »

Even if we raised the Pulse Laser's damage/shot to 135-150...
That is about autopulse tier, which is also not very good against heavy armor.  (Autopulse running on sustained only in a protracted fight is not very impressive.)  Sure, about 150 per shot is better anti-armor than what pulse laser has today, but not so much better that I would take it primarily for anti-armor.  My ship still needs a shield-cracker, which would be an energy weapon if it does not use or cannot carry enough Sabots.

I have used Mining Blaster instead of Autopulse (early in the game when I had limited weapon availability) on starter Apogee because of armor penetration problems against heavy armor targets like enemy Ventures or weaker battlestations.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2022, 07:56:12 AM by Megas »
Logged

prav

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 381
    • View Profile
Re: Give the pulse laser a bonus vs shields
« Reply #32 on: December 23, 2022, 09:56:32 AM »

I don't think the pulse laser should be good - or even decent - against heavy armor. That's what phase lances and the blasters are for.

And if armor isn't good against weapons like the medium pulse laser, what is all that plating even for?
Logged

Schwartz

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1452
    • View Profile
Re: Give the pulse laser a bonus vs shields
« Reply #33 on: December 23, 2022, 12:23:38 PM »

Sorry FooF, I was being lazy and didn't read every single post. We just had the same great idea. ;)

Yes, Pulse Laser doesn't have to be great at armor-cracking. Giving it stronger damage with lower RoF still would not make it amazing vs. armor. The difference between 100 and 150 is pretty much piddly. It would make it a good deal better vs. frigates and light destroyers though - which the Phase Lance also obliterates thanks to its extreme burst that the AI cannot deal with nor properly anticipate. I never felt Pulse Laser was weak. In fact, for the longest time I thought Phase Lance needed the buff more because it lacks the flux efficiency. But thanks to how AI does (not) handle it, Phase Lance actually excels whereas PL is just the definition of average. It's still one of the best energy weapons up to that size for winning flux battles vs. shields. If it loses that crown in the next version, it would deserve something extra, yes.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2022, 12:25:38 PM by Schwartz »
Logged

Goumindong

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1886
    • View Profile
Re: Give the pulse laser a bonus vs shields
« Reply #34 on: December 24, 2022, 11:59:30 AM »

If the pulse laser is to get a buff damage shouldn’t really be it.

It does 300 dps and has 100 armor pen. That is objectively good for a medium weapon. The only problem it has is that it also costs 300 flux per second and because it’s neither HE nor Kinetic you get neither the “it’s very valuable to flux dump this into armor” nor the “it’s very valuable to flux dump this into shields” advantage that HE and Kin have.

Two IR pulse do 304 dmg for 242 flux. This is worse Vs armor (50 Vs 100 pen) and has lower range but given that the range difference isn’t that much and running multiple pulse lasers is difficult for most ships anyway… the two IR pulse might be better than the single pulse laser because your anti-armor value doesn’t much matter if you lose the flux War and your weapons shut off.

Now, if you only have one medium slot this isn’t an issue. But very few ships have slot and flux stats that make it make sense. *

So if pulse lasers are to be buffed (and I am not sure they should be, after all, weak weapons are fine, they give AI loadouts things to use and players upgrade space) it should be in flux efficiency or in OP cost. RoF I don’t think is great because most ships already have difficulty firing a pulse laser.

*the shirke being I think the only one, and it still has small slots to utilize IR pulse. (This because a single pulse laser can start winning the flux war on a small ship from further away and an antimatter blaster rather than IR pulse can finish the job). But the Shrike still has the flux to maybe like a HB instead.
Logged

FooF

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1378
    • View Profile
Re: Give the pulse laser a bonus vs shields
« Reply #35 on: December 24, 2022, 12:34:47 PM »

If the pulse laser is to get a buff damage shouldn’t really be it.

It does 300 dps and has 100 armor pen. That is objectively good for a medium weapon. The only problem it has is that it also costs 300 flux per second and because it’s neither HE nor Kinetic you get neither the “it’s very valuable to flux dump this into armor” nor the “it’s very valuable to flux dump this into shields” advantage that HE and Kin have.

Two IR pulse do 304 dmg for 242 flux. This is worse Vs armor (50 Vs 100 pen) and has lower range but given that the range difference isn’t that much and running multiple pulse lasers is difficult for most ships anyway… the two IR pulse might be better than the single pulse laser because your anti-armor value doesn’t much matter if you lose the flux War and your weapons shut off.

Now, if you only have one medium slot this isn’t an issue. But very few ships have slot and flux stats that make it make sense. *

So if pulse lasers are to be buffed (and I am not sure they should be, after all, weak weapons are fine, they give AI loadouts things to use and players upgrade space) it should be in flux efficiency or in OP cost. RoF I don’t think is great because most ships already have difficulty firing a pulse laser.

*the shirke being I think the only one, and it still has small slots to utilize IR pulse. (This because a single pulse laser can start winning the flux war on a small ship from further away and an antimatter blaster rather than IR pulse can finish the job). But the Shrike still has the flux to maybe like a HB instead.

Pulse Laser efficiency is precisely why raising the damage/shot but lowering the ROF makes sense to me. No, you're not getting through shields any faster (it's still 300 DPS for 300 flux) but you are getting through armor/hull faster because of the greater damage/shot. Saying "I don't worry about the Pulse Laser (or IR Pulse) getting through armor" doesn't necessarily mean you turn these weapons off once they get through shields. I would imagine you're still firing them. That means any kind of reduction in time-to-kill is an efficiency gain, just on the backend.

Now, I think it's much simpler to reduce Pulse Laser flux/shot to 90 and be done with it. It makes it a better shield-breaker by virtue of efficiency. Or you could combine both ideas and raise to 135 damage/shot for 125 flux (.92 efficiency), and reduce RoF to .45 (or 2.22 shots per second). That would make it slightly better in both armor penetration and shield breaking, without changing actual DPS values.
Logged

Goumindong

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1886
    • View Profile
Re: Give the pulse laser a bonus vs shields
« Reply #36 on: December 24, 2022, 05:45:11 PM »

But I don’t want it better at breaking armor. It’s fine at breaking armor as it is. And the Heavy Blaster is the dedicated armor breaker that is good at breaking armor. No need to make the PL good enough at breaking armor and better at breaking shield than the HB. I would prefer increasing its RoF and giving it more DPS and flux usage than increasing its damage per shot.

The “problem” with the pulse laser, if there is one, is that it’s bad at breaking Shields. You have a hard time effectively flux dumping into enemy shields because your efficiency is 1 to 1 and your raw output is lower than HBs. You then do not win the flux war against any ship that has even a modicum of kinetic.
Logged

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 12117
    • View Profile
Re: Give the pulse laser a bonus vs shields
« Reply #37 on: December 24, 2022, 05:55:04 PM »

Pulse Laser efficiency is precisely why raising the damage/shot but lowering the ROF makes sense to me. No, you're not getting through shields any faster (it's still 300 DPS for 300 flux) but you are getting through armor/hull faster because of the greater damage/shot. Saying "I don't worry about the Pulse Laser (or IR Pulse) getting through armor" doesn't necessarily mean you turn these weapons off once they get through shields. I would imagine you're still firing them. That means any kind of reduction in time-to-kill is an efficiency gain, just on the backend.
Yes, my ships continue firing pulse lasers at targets after shields drop because that is all they have or part of the entire assault package.

Giving unlimited weapon access and sufficient dissipation, the only reason I would use Pulse Laser instead of Heavy Blaster for the ships is better shield-cracking efficiency, and only when IR PL is not a better option.

Pulse Laser getting through armor faster does not matter if it fails to win the flux war in the first place.

The “problem” with the pulse laser, if there is one, is that it’s bad at breaking Shields. You have a hard time effectively flux dumping into enemy shields because your efficiency is 1 to 1 and your raw output is lower than HBs. You then do not win the flux war against any ship that has even a modicum of kinetic.
This is main problem of Pulse Laser.  I go out of my way to put ePD+IPDAI on the ship to buff IR PLs and make two of them better than each Pulse Laser.  I suppose I could use Safety Override instead and chop shot range of everything else (although I start using blasters with that much dissipation).

Aside from IR PL having 0.8 efficiency, Autopulse also has somewhere between 0.8 and 0.9 efficiency.  Pulse Laser tries to be mini-plasma cannon, but its hit strength or DPS is not good enough for that role with only 1.0 efficiency.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2022, 06:00:38 PM by Megas »
Logged

Goumindong

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1886
    • View Profile
Re: Give the pulse laser a bonus vs shields
« Reply #38 on: December 24, 2022, 06:05:23 PM »

Think about how efficient a pulse laser is Vs a HB Vs Shields

In 1 second the pulse laser does 300 dmg and the HB 500. The pulse laser eats 300 and the HB 720.

So it looks like the HB is way behind. It is 320 net flux behind. The HB ship has taken 1020 flux and the PL ship has taken 800. The PL is way ahead.

But assume Youre shooting something that has lots of kinetics. (Which is common because kinetics are good) and is firing at exactly 1 to 1 before the kinetic bonus. Well then it gets another 200 flux each second to shoot kinetics at you, which is worth 400 damage. Now youre now only 20 flux ahead using the “shield killing” PL. this gets better the better your Shields are and the better the enemies Shields are (and gets worse the better the enemies weapon efficiency is). But it’s still not a terribly huge difference. And if you have your own kinetic weapons why would you trade a net 20 flux trade advantage for the raw power of HB?

(Though they may be a lot better Vs high tech ships which only have energy, it may be worth testing Vs redacted, but I suspect you will do better with IR pulse in that instance)
« Last Edit: December 24, 2022, 06:09:31 PM by Goumindong »
Logged

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 12117
    • View Profile
Re: Give the pulse laser a bonus vs shields
« Reply #39 on: December 24, 2022, 06:15:57 PM »

Think about how efficient a pulse laser is Vs a HB Vs Shields
...
I have observed this in previous releases.  If enemy has more time to shoot back, the attacker (with PL) takes more flux from the enemy - hard flux at that!

Another advantage blasters have over pulse laser is no-windup, which is more friendly for strikes or hit-and-run.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2022, 06:19:50 PM by Megas »
Logged

Goumindong

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1886
    • View Profile
Re: Give the pulse laser a bonus vs shields
« Reply #40 on: December 24, 2022, 06:25:21 PM »

It is exacerbated by the fact that a lot of ships that would use PL are “punch down” ships rather than “hold the line” ships (which tend to have kinetics for obvious reasons) and as a result are always on a “enemy ships will show up to aid the isolated one” timer. So if you have HB you’re going to be in fewer multi-ship engagements. You will have time to reset your max cap.

Edit: like. Name one ship that is going to sit on the line and trade/push away with medium energy weapons. The eagle can do it but probably not with pulse lasers
« Last Edit: December 24, 2022, 06:30:33 PM by Goumindong »
Logged

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 12117
    • View Profile
Re: Give the pulse laser a bonus vs shields
« Reply #41 on: December 24, 2022, 06:47:16 PM »

It is exacerbated by the fact that a lot of ships that would use PL are “punch down” ships rather than “hold the line” ships (which tend to have kinetics for obvious reasons) and as a result are always on a “enemy ships will show up to aid the isolated one” timer. So if you have HB you’re going to be in fewer multi-ship engagements. You will have time to reset your max cap.
Yes, my ship feels stuck to the enemy and needs to drill with pulse lasers for a while just to damage enemies effectively.  With blasters, ship can run-and-gun popping off shots like Doomguy with super shotgun.

Edit: like. Name one ship that is going to sit on the line and trade/push away with medium energy weapons. The eagle can do it but probably not with pulse lasers
It hurts.  I have tried it with various ships (like Medusa and Aurora), but not very satisfied with the performance even when they can win like that.  Often, even if the ship wins the flux war, it may have less than a second to cause damage safely, and a steady weapon with windup is not very good at exploiting brief openings like a heavy blaster can.
Logged

Goumindong

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1886
    • View Profile
Re: Give the pulse laser a bonus vs shields
« Reply #42 on: December 24, 2022, 07:17:38 PM »

I think I could maybe make it work on an Eagle. I like phase lances there usually because the burst flattens fighters. But 3x PL with 3 kinetic in front would probably be fine at winning flux wars.
Logged

prav

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 381
    • View Profile
Re: Give the pulse laser a bonus vs shields
« Reply #43 on: December 24, 2022, 11:09:53 PM »

Pulse Eagle is pretty cool but suffers from being a high throughput but low cap build - it doesn't have the stamina to really put on the hurt.

In general I've found that giving Eagle fits plenty of caps helps it quite a bit. Heavy armor to let it go shield-down a bit helps as well.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2022, 11:11:34 PM by prav »
Logged

Embolism

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 511
    • View Profile
Re: Give the pulse laser a bonus vs shields
« Reply #44 on: December 24, 2022, 11:56:56 PM »

The only change I want to see to the pulse laser is... make it an actual laser! That's right, turn it into a crappy beam weapon.

Before the IR Autolance was revealed I'd say this would be actually feasible, but now probably not since trying to make it viable would make it too similar to the Autolance. But really my only reason for this change is because it always irked me that the pulse lasers shoot projectiles that obviously aren't lasers.
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6