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Author Topic: Give the pulse laser a bonus vs shields  (Read 3020 times)

Grievous69

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Re: Give the pulse laser a bonus vs shields
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2022, 10:29:08 AM »

.... Yea I can't justify spending 20 OP on high flux fly swatters, small Burst PD works fine.
What if the Pulse Laser had its OP cost lowered, making it a budget option?
Perhaps, it might indirectly help the Wolf since now it can squeeze a bit more on flux stats.
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prav

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Re: Give the pulse laser a bonus vs shields
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2022, 11:36:31 AM »

Yea let's nerf the only good medium weapons so the rest looks less bad in comparison /s

Yes, that's how you balance things without powercreep. "Only good" is just another way of saying overpowered.
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ForestFighters

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Re: Give the pulse laser a bonus vs shields
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2022, 11:44:40 AM »

Yes, that's how you balance things without powercreep. "Only good" is just another way of saying overpowered.

Or all the other medium energies suck.
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Grievous69

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Re: Give the pulse laser a bonus vs shields
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2022, 11:51:41 AM »

Yea let's nerf the only good medium weapons so the rest looks less bad in comparison /s

Yes, that's how you balance things without powercreep. "Only good" is just another way of saying overpowered.
Medium energy weapons is the only "class" where I don't use like half of the weapons because they stink or are too niche.
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Megas

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Re: Give the pulse laser a bonus vs shields
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2022, 01:11:28 PM »

Or all the other medium energies suck.
Medium energy weapons is the only "class" where I don't use like half of the weapons because they stink or are too niche.
All of the above!

Most medium energy weapons are underwhelming or specialized tools.  They are at least one among low-powered (Graviton Beam, Heavy Burst Laser, Ion Beam), horrible range (Mining Blaster, Ion Pulser), or inefficient (the rest).

If the mount is hybrid or universal, I would very likely use some ballistic (or rarely heavy blaster) over pulse laser.

If I need to use medium energy weapons for anti-shield, my first choice is IR PLs if the ship has ePD+IPDAI.  If not, then either Pulse Lasers or (occasionally) HSA Graviton Beams.
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Grievous69

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Re: Give the pulse laser a bonus vs shields
« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2022, 03:41:14 PM »

Ion Pulser is great wtf. First time (this patch) I heard someone mention it in a negative way.
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Thaago

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Re: Give the pulse laser a bonus vs shields
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2022, 05:40:58 PM »

Same tbh - the performance of the ion pulser is one of the reasons that the pulse laser feels weak in many situations. Even though the pulse laser has better range, sustained dps, and efficiency, burst damage is just very powerful on mobile skirmisher ships and so is a flanking source of burst ion!
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Megas

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Re: Give the pulse laser a bonus vs shields
« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2022, 06:12:35 PM »

I would not want to use Ion Pulser as a workhorse (shield-cracker) weapon unless it can overload their shields in a single burst.  I usually use it either as a finisher or non-missile PD.  The main annoyance of Ion Pulser is poor range on non-SO ships.
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FooF

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Re: Give the pulse laser a bonus vs shields
« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2022, 07:59:48 PM »

The Pulse Laser is the definition of a do-it-all generalist weapon. It does precisely half the damage of a Medium Ballistic or Kinetic, at less range, for 50% more flux, but with perfect accuracy, little overkill/decent rate of fire, in one mount and only 10 OP. It doesn't do anything remarkable for good or ill, but that's kind of the point. In a sea of specialization, it does look bad by comparison but truly, it's the ideal generalist weapon.

I suppose if you really wanted to modify it slightly, increase its damage to 150 and only fire twice a second. It would be the same shield DPS but have greater armor penetration. The trade-off is that it wouldn't deal with fighters quite as well and be slightly inferior as a pressure weapon. However, I think the Pulse Laser is overall fine for what it is.
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Thaago

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Re: Give the pulse laser a bonus vs shields
« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2022, 09:16:28 PM »

I think accuracy is an important consideration when it comes to comparing the pulse laser to a kinetic because the pulse laser is so accurate. HVDs have great accuracy but only 275 DPS vs shields, although at much greater range. HACs have 428 DPS vs shields, but miss a lot - if 2/3 of the shots are hitting they do 285 DPS.

So the 300 DPS of a pulse laser really isn't that bad. They cost more flux which is bad on ships with mixed armaments, they have low range (but high tech ships are often fast), and they are bad vs medium+ armor (but then against kinetics are bad vs light+ armor).
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tomatopaste

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Re: Give the pulse laser a bonus vs shields
« Reply #25 on: December 22, 2022, 10:37:46 PM »

The Pulse Laser is the definition of a do-it-all generalist weapon. It does precisely half the damage of a Medium Ballistic or Kinetic, at less range, for 50% more flux, but with perfect accuracy, little overkill/decent rate of fire, in one mount and only 10 OP. It doesn't do anything remarkable for good or ill, but that's kind of the point. In a sea of specialization, it does look bad by comparison but truly, it's the ideal generalist weapon.

I suppose if you really wanted to modify it slightly, increase its damage to 150 and only fire twice a second. It would be the same shield DPS but have greater armor penetration. The trade-off is that it wouldn't deal with fighters quite as well and be slightly inferior as a pressure weapon. However, I think the Pulse Laser is overall fine for what it is.

That's exactly why it needs changing. While it may be the most generalist, the nature of high tech ships is such that they have no use for it, since specialised weapons are virtually always the better option for effective loadouts. The pulse laser is certainly not worth 10 OP in its current state.

The new kinetic blaster will probably replace the pulse laser in the few places I use it like on wolf loadouts, which is why the pulse laser needs some kind of edge, since it currently does not have a niche. There are far better missile options for cracking armour especially now that the breach is available.
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Schwartz

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Re: Give the pulse laser a bonus vs shields
« Reply #26 on: December 22, 2022, 11:30:06 PM »

Simple way to buff the pulse laser without actually changing any of the values (because it doesn't need changing, it's flux-efficient and an energy projectile weapon.. it has enough perks): Halve the fire rate, double the damage/flux cost per shot. Or reduce fire rate by x0,66, up damage/flux by x1,33. Something like that.
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Megas

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Re: Give the pulse laser a bonus vs shields
« Reply #27 on: December 23, 2022, 05:13:52 AM »

For me, the biggest competitor of Pulse Laser is two IR PLs boosted by ePD+IPDAI (because ships tend to have plenty of mounts, but not enough dissipation for all of the mounts).  More efficient and better range.  Worse anti-armor, but if I wanted anti-armor, I would use a blaster.

Pulse Laser is only generalist because the other assault weapons are anti-armor specialists (blasters or lances), or disabler in case of Ion Pulser.  Pulse Laser is not good enough as a generalist.  Its anti-armor is not very good, and it is not efficient enough for shield-cracking, even if has better efficiency than other medium energy assault weapons.

If Pulse Laser needs a buff, either better efficiency like IR PL or Autopulse, or OP cost lowered to 8 or 9, or (sacrilege) boost its range by 50 or 100.

I like to see Wolf be able to support Pulse Laser.  So far, Wolf with hard flux weapons can only sort of brawl with ePD+IPDAI IR PLs and/or Ion Pulser.  If I try medium Pulse Laser Wolf against a shielded 4 or 5 DP frigate, Wolf always loses the flux war unless it has a massive skill and flux advantage (which often includes leaving some mounts empty).

P.S.  Given all usable (human) medium energy weapons, Pulse Laser's primary role is shield-cracker, even if designed as a generalist because the other options are worse at anti-shield.

HSA Gravitons are an OP pig (after spending OP on HSA) and cannot use small mounts like IR PLs.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2022, 05:55:01 AM by Megas »
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FooF

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Re: Give the pulse laser a bonus vs shields
« Reply #28 on: December 23, 2022, 06:02:52 AM »

That's exactly why it needs changing. While it may be the most generalist, the nature of high tech ships is such that they have no use for it, since specialised weapons are virtually always the better option for effective loadouts. The pulse laser is certainly not worth 10 OP in its current state.

The new kinetic blaster will probably replace the pulse laser in the few places I use it like on wolf loadouts, which is why the pulse laser needs some kind of edge, since it currently does not have a niche. There are far better missile options for cracking armour especially now that the breach is available.

I'd argue the exact opposite. High tech always has a use for it, there are just better options if you have the OP to spare and the specialized weapon is available. Don't forget, Heavy Blasters,  Ion Pulsers, Ion Beams, etc. are higher tier weapons and not always available. Pulse Lasers, on the other hand, are ubiquitous. They're the Heavy Mortars/Arbalests of High Tech. You have to have lower-tier weapons available otherwise you're stuck with Mining Blasters and Gravitons in every Medium Energy mount. We can't assume everyone has access to the best weapons at all times.

You can't just look at the Pulse Laser from the perspective of the player. You also need weapons to fight against. Enemy fleets with Pulse Lasers might not be quite as challenging, but then again, player skill is all over the place and some folks might need an easier target (though I'd argue that the only thing a Pulse Laser allows you to do is armor tank a bit better). Also, any kind of buff to the Pulse Laser is also going to buff REDACTED fleets, who use them a lot.

Regarding the Kinetic Blaster, I was under the impression only Diktat are going to use it and it wouldn't be widely available. It might be a better weapon but it will be very limited, at least that was my understanding.

Simple way to buff the pulse laser without actually changing any of the values (because it doesn't need changing, it's flux-efficient and an energy projectile weapon.. it has enough perks): Halve the fire rate, double the damage/flux cost per shot. Or reduce fire rate by x0,66, up damage/flux by x1,33. Something like that.

I suggested that just two posts above yours...  :P

If Pulse Laser needs a buff, either better efficiency like IR PL or Autopulse, or OP cost lowered to 8 or 9.

P.S.  Given all of energy weapons usable in medium energy, Pulse Lasers primary role is shield-cracker, even if designed as a generalist because the other options are worse at anti-shield.

IR Pulse being .9 efficiency was a good buff but Pulse Laser went from 1.1 to 1 in the same patch. Better efficiency doesn't help its primary deficiency, which is anti-armor. What really stands out is that the Ion Pulser's damage/shot is 90 compared to the PL's 100. Basically, its 90% as good against armor as the PL but it also has the added EMP effect. Yes it has shorter range and lower sustained DPS but that's where the PL create some separation with higher damage/shot.

I suppose the real question is why the PL has such a high rate of fire. Its accuracy is perfect so the "spray n' pray" methodology doesn't really fit and I suppose it makes it better against fast targets (more opportunity to hit) but it's really not advertised as anti-fighter. Increasing its damage/shot, but lowering the RoF, seems like a good fit if you were going to alter it in any way. Even a modest bump, like 135 damage/shot would help, at like 130 flux/shot (.96 efficiency) would be all it needs and puts it below the Autopulse (which is 150 damage/shot at 125 flux/shot already).
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Megas

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Re: Give the pulse laser a bonus vs shields
« Reply #29 on: December 23, 2022, 06:35:20 AM »

IR Pulse being .9 efficiency was a good buff but Pulse Laser went from 1.1 to 1 in the same patch. Better efficiency doesn't help its primary deficiency, which is anti-armor. What really stands out is that the Ion Pulser's damage/shot is 90 compared to the PL's 100. Basically, its 90% as good against armor as the PL but it also has the added EMP effect. Yes it has shorter range and lower sustained DPS but that's where the PL create some separation with higher damage/shot.
IR PL currently has about 0.8 efficiency.

Pulse Laser is deficient against both heavy armor and shields.  There are other anti-armor weapon options but not anti-shield (aside from ePD+IPDAI IR PLs).  I consider mediocre anti-shield performance the primary deficiency on Pulse Laser.

If Pulse Laser has better anti-armor, then heavy blaster's only niche left would be DPS on one-mount wonders like Shrike and Fury.

Regarding the Kinetic Blaster, I was under the impression only Diktat are going to use it and it wouldn't be widely available. It might be a better weapon but it will be very limited, at least that was my understanding.
That is what I understood too.  Maybe no blueprints and no orders with illegal gunrunners, dropped only by Lion Guard's Executors.  (Grunt Diktat Executors might use standard human weapons.)

Some human weapons are rare enough that I consider them unlimited only after I get the blueprint and Heavy Industry online.
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