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[BCS]

I didn't know whether or not to qualify this as a bug so here it goes.

Basically I've been watching a lot of AI Afflictors in action recently. I had them in two versions - one with Annihilators and one with Swarmers. In both cases they would absolutely refuse to fire the missiles against enemy Cerberi/Hounds when contesting objectives. Sometimes if the enemy ship was disabled(they had Ion Cannons) or overloaded they would fire off one volley but that's about it. This is especially weird since against ships with shields(i.e. Kites, Shrikes) they would fire missiles whenever they were on cooldown(as they should, that's not a complaint)

Same thing happens against Derelicts although it's less noticeable because they're so slow they rarely get to contest anything.

[Alex]

Hmm - do you have the specific Afflictor variant where this happens, and does it happen in the simulator? Just based on your description, my guess is that it has some other weapon it wants to control "manually" and so doesn't get to fire the missiles very often. E.G. if the Afflictor has an AMB mounted, chances are the AI would prefer that to a group with a single small missile, so it might only fire off missiles after it fires the AMB, or some such.

[BCS]

Here is what I'm currently using. The officer is Aggressive, the weapon groups are auto-assigned.

Here's an example against Derelicts. The first one is so-so but the second one that arrives is destroyed entirely with Entropy Amplifier'd Light Needlers/Ion Cannon, not a single missile is fired: https://youtu.be/8SSulX8hRqY

And here's an example against a Hound which starts well but then unnecessarily drags out - the fight lasts almost one minute even though at one point the Hound is completely disabled with EMP: https://youtu.be/ZGWhs_bqF7o

[gG_pilot]

Swarmer missiles are wierd. In the description is, they  are dedicated anti-fighter weapon.
https://starsector.fandom.com/wiki/Swarmer_SRM_Launcher
"The missiles are designed to intercept and destroy enemy fighters."
I  have never ever see it fire at fighters. Contrary, Breach missiles (anti armour missiles) are very often fired against fighters or ships with shields up.

 
Swarmer should use 2  detection ranges  for different valid target  types.
- 400m to attack fighters  (priority targets)
- 1000m unshielded regular ship (secondary target)
- 1000m shielded ship with 90% plus flux (tertiary target)
On top, as  a   zero  flux  weapon system it need to  use  The Panic weapon mode. it means, if  the ship is going down ( his life time prediction is less than 20seconds) it  fires all rockets it  could ( Warrior mood  : I am going  to die, but I hit you at least.).

For future patch series, AI controlling weapons is asking for an ground up refresh.

[gG_pilot]

Hmm - my guess is that it has some other weapon it wants to control "manually" and so doesn't get to fire the missiles very often.

AI manually control use questionable logic with strange results. For example  - Annihilate rocket at  Apogee small slot make ship wiggle which basically made all beam weapons miss. Same (similar) result  has AI switching to manually control any weapons on any ship. One of my setting  made  Paragon wiggle, as you expect it miss a  lot. Perhaps a quick fix can be,  allow in the weapon group setting add a button for ""set the Main weapon group. Then AI use the Main Weapon group for optimal ship range purpose and aim.

Anyway, would you these fixes aim for the future patch so you could release the current one asap, thx.

[Amazigh]

Here is what I'm currently using. The officer is Aggressive, the weapon groups are auto-assigned.

I'm going to guess that weapon groups are:
- Annihilators (manual)
- Needlers (manual)
- Ion Cannon (autofire)

If this is the case, i'd expect the AI to not be using the annihilators much (at least against the small/agile targets you were showing it against) as their inaccuracy and lower projectile velocity makes hitting a small target challenging, while the needlers are accurate and high velocity, so they are easy to hit with.

----

Personally, i don't think annihilators/needlers are a great option on such a mobile phase frigate (it's fast enough to make annihilators unreliable, and doesn't really want much kinetic damage as it should be flanking behind shields, rather than trying to wear then down)

I would go for some combo of: Anti-matter blasters, Reapers or Atropos (going by pure vanilla), to give it the pure strike burst damage potential that phase ships generally want.
Swarmers would also be an option instead of torpedoes if you want a longer duration sustain build, but would lose out in strike capability.

AI manually control use questionable logic with strange results. For example  - Annihilate rocket at  Apogee small slot make ship wiggle which basically made all beam weapons miss.

Well, this is a questionable weapon mounting choice, so i'd not be surprised that it gives strange results. That small missile hardpoint is offset at an angle after all, so the ship has to turn to use it.

My thoughts on what the AI might be thinking: Enemy is at high flux pressure from the main guns, so wants to use the annihilators and starts to turn sideways, this makes it stop firing the main guns as they are turned away from the enemy, but then suddenly the enemy isn't under as much flux pressure due to the main guns not firing anymore, and this makes using the annihilators not appealing anymore, so it turns back to the main guns, and proceeds to repeat this over and over in a cycle causing "wiggling".

[Alex]

Here is what I'm currently using. The officer is Aggressive, the weapon groups are auto-assigned.

Thank you! Hmm, this all looks pretty much as-expected to me. It's just not the easiest thing to aim Annihilators from a fast-moving ship (especially at a fast target), and the AI is also a bit more conservative with HE missiles vs shieldless targets (as opposed to vs targets with shields that are currently vulnerable), to avoid quickly using up all its missiles on a likely-weak target that's not "worth it". It also gets  more conservative when missile ammo is low, iirc, which might explain why it didn't use any vs the 2nd derelict.

[gG_pilot]

AI manually control use questionable logic with strange results. For example  - Annihilate rocket at  Apogee small slot make ship wiggle which basically made all beam weapons miss.

Well, this is a questionable weapon mounting choice, so i'd not be surprised that it gives strange results. That small missile hardpoint is offset at an angle after all, so the ship has to turn to use it.

My thoughts on what the AI might be thinking: Enemy is at high flux pressure from the main guns, so wants to use the annihilators and starts to turn sideways, this makes it stop firing the main guns as they are turned away from the enemy, but then suddenly the enemy isn't under as much flux pressure due to the main guns not firing anymore, and this makes using the annihilators not appealing anymore, so it turns back to the main guns, and proceeds to repeat this over and over in a cycle causing "wiggling".

Apogee with Anihilators  in small slot is extreme example. Where you  can quickly see the flaw of the AI.  The problem persist for  any weapon on any ship. In smaller extend. e.i.  due to  quick  change of weapons,  ship can wigle which lower  his combat potential.  I have seen Paragon  wigling  because of weapon switching.

I'm going to guess that weapon groups are:
- Annihilators (manual)
- Needlers (manual)
- Ion Cannon (autofire)

If this is the case, i'd expect the AI to not be using the annihilators much (at least against the small/agile targets you were showing it against) as their inaccuracy and lower projectile velocity makes hitting a small target challenging, while the needlers are accurate and high velocity, so they are easy to hit with.

  When ship is fully controled by  AI, then setting initial  weapon  groups Manuall/Auto has no meaning. AI switch them  as it likes.

not the easiest thing to aim Annihilators from a fast-moving ship, and the AI is also a bit more conservative with HE missiles vs shieldless targets (as opposed to vs targets with shields that are currently vulnerable), to avoid quickly using up all its missiles on a likely-weak target that's not "worth it".

See the OP there  are TWO  rockets:

I had them in two versions - one with Annihilators and one with Swarmers. In both cases they would absolutely refuse to fire

Mr. Alex, Although your explanation could be correct  for unguided  rockets, It doesn't fit for Swarmer. It also didn't explain why anti-fighter rocket  system never shot  fighters.

[Alex]

Mr. Alex, Although your explanation could be correct  for unguided  rockets, It doesn't fit for Swarmer.

There are multiple components to the explanation, so, it does!

It also didn't explain why anti-fighter rocket  system never shot  fighters.

After a very quick sanity check: they do. If you have a specific simulator matchup where you feel they should and they don't, I'd be happy to take a look!

[Supereor]

Mr. Alex, Although your explanation could be correct  for unguided  rockets, It doesn't fit for Swarmer.

It seems like it's what Alex meant by the ships not prioritizing shieldless ships because it doesn't view them as important of a target as vulnerable shielded ships.

[BCS]

The swarmer absolutely does target fighters, the problem is that it's not very good at its job. It fires four missiles every 5.6 seconds. Even assuming the best case scenario where all missiles hit(because fighters WILL target them and they're extremely fragile) and destroy a fighter, since they usually some in groups of 3 or more, in best case scenario you're looking at 16.8 seconds to completely destroy a wing. That's... not great, and in real battle conditions it usually takes much longer than that.

I wondered if it wouldn't be better to fire one missile every 1.4 seconds instead; "softening up" fighters for actual PD(i.e. vulcans) to finish off.

(Also, ironically, Swarmers are pretty decent against enemy ships - unlike Annihilators they always hit unless intercepted and all strike the same spot meaning their lower damage is partially compensated for)

[gG_pilot]

It also didn't explain why anti-fighter rocket  system never shot  fighters.

After a very quick sanity check: they do. If you have a specific simulator matchup where you feel they should and they don't, I'd be happy to take a look!

My  statement came from my early Starsector experience, 10 months ago. I  felt that result of this weapon  is non. I just  repeated my feeling without precise data. Well, here it is:
I confirm,  the Swarmer shoot fighters, that is correct. But they dont kill  fighters.
Precisely speaking, efficiency of "dedicated anti-fighter rocket system" is close to zero.
Here is a ship I  used  to test: (no pilot set, at the combat start > turn on AI, that is all, no other input)
https://i.imgur.com/4xD1bZq.png
Here is  a Detailed battle results:
https://i.imgur.com/jTOmKku.png

Get noticed, in 703 seconds long fight,  all  2x80=160 rockets was used for whooping 9  fighter kills. Which  is 7,5% of total fighters shot down.
Funny enough, thanks to  rocket to rocket collision mechanic  it accidentally took down  13 opponents rockets, which is 7,3% of total rockets taken  down.
Result of the "dedicated anti-fighter rocket system" is >> it is almost same successful in taking down opponent rockets accidentally as  shooting down fighters intentionally.
 
My observation why hit rate is so low:
1. Ship has no Weapon AI officer, rather each weapon  has his very  own control, it means  overkill is  real.  When Swarm rocket system is  activated, also  other weapons acquire the same target,  result is >> at the  moment rockets reach the  Fighters,  they  are killed by HVD and PD lasers. >> Rockets has no  kill and flux  is piling up.
2. Swarm  Rocket AI do  not check the  speed of target or vector of speed. As  result, about half of rockets is fired at  fighters  who are leaving perimeter.  >>> Fighters left perimeter, rockets cant catch them so they harmlessly disappear in space.

------------
Ideeas how to fix it
1. develop a Ship Weapon AI officer. A logic controlling weapon resources to reach  better efficiency. It  would make  sense to mmake it a game mechanic  in a form - Only Piloted ships  gets Ship Weapon AI Officer. Optionally  makes it a fleet skill.
It is costly project for several month.
2.  change Swarmer AI  as fallows:
-  add range  deetection and priorities  for different targets  (see my previous  post)
- rise up rocket speed about + 50%
3. add Saving logic
- a] cheap to implement - add logic it  fires at Fighters which vector of speed compared to the ship  vector of speed  makes they are getting closer. Never fire a rocket  at  fighter which  vector of speed compared to the ship vector makes they are splitting.
- b] better but more expensive - add logic prediction  >> fire only if   the Swarmer can catch fighter  before he leaves perimeter. Sounds unfair, but it fits in.  Get noticed, it is DEDICATED weapon system, we can expect it has specialised computer+radar.

Conclusion:
Swarmers could be interesting weapon for certain ships. For example, lovely  pair of rabbit hunters  eagle/falcon.
Unfortunately, at the  moment Swarmers are just trap. It is only useable in very early game (an hour) when player has  nothing. Probably worst weapon  in  whole  game.

[Alex]

The swarmer absolutely does target fighters, the problem is that it's not very good at its job. It fires four missiles every 5.6 seconds. Even assuming the best case scenario where all missiles hit(because fighters WILL target them and they're extremely fragile) and destroy a fighter, since they usually some in groups of 3 or more, in best case scenario you're looking at 16.8 seconds to completely destroy a wing. That's... not great, and in real battle conditions it usually takes much longer than that.

I wondered if it wouldn't be better to fire one missile every 1.4 seconds instead; "softening up" fighters for actual PD(i.e. vulcans) to finish off.

(Also, ironically, Swarmers are pretty decent against enemy ships - unlike Annihilators they always hit unless intercepted and all strike the same spot meaning their lower damage is partially compensated for)

Hmm - they *are* marked as "Anti Small Craft" - I suppose that can be read as "fighters", but the intent is for "small craft" to cover both fighters and frigates. They are not particularly great vs fighters, but as part of a larger package, they can do alright in that role, unlike most other missiles, so I think the designation is warranted.

... ahh, the description still talks about it being anti-fighter! That is so, so, so out of date, probably going back to before fighters were even mounted on carriers. I'll change it.

[Thaago]

I'm glad the description is changing! I find they are useful as supplementary anti-fighter vs the more heavily armored fighters if the other weapons on the ship are low shot size, but they are quite good anti-frigate missiles.

[gG_pilot]

I suppose that can be read as "fighters", but the intent is for "small craft" to cover both fighters and frigates. They are not particularly great vs fighters,

When you look at my simple test, it is total waste  of ammo fire Swarmer against fighters, chance  to hit is less than ONE %.

they can do alright in that role

When you are not going to fix hit chance, then better would be  remove tag aim fighters at all. Just conserve  ammo.
The only problem left, is this topic issue has  started "swarmers are not fired against Frigates".

So, the complete statement probably  is:  Swarmers are waste against fighters, and don't shoot against frigates.

... ahh, the description still talks about it being anti-fighter! That is so, so, so out of date, probably going back to before fighters were even mounted on carriers. I'll change it.

Well, fixing poor weapon performance and AI target acquiring  by changing text of item description is, ... very bold  .