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Author Topic: AI Frigates happily blocking friendly fire  (Read 1002 times)

huggs

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AI Frigates happily blocking friendly fire
« on: November 25, 2022, 12:14:40 PM »

While constantly firing 2x tachyons and 2x high intensity lasers and some other stuff from a paragon, my own frigates quite frequently
  • either position themselves straight in between me and my target
  • quickly fly across my line of fire

Also, they do this even when
  • they could safely be off to either side.
  • they are not in range to fire at the target

There is no actual reason I can see why they would choose to position themselves the way they do.

In the example screenshot there is only a single frigate blocking the paragon fire, and the frigate is actually in range to shoot the target in this particular case.


No mods.
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huggs

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Re: AI Frigates happily blocking friendly fire
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2022, 12:17:14 PM »

I can see the image url while editing the post, but the image does not show up when viewing the post. The image is on google drive with public access.
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Alex

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Re: AI Frigates happily blocking friendly fire
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2022, 12:25:03 PM »

Hmm, the AI generally tries to avoid doing this, but it's not guaranteed to do so. If there's an easy simulator scenario to see this in, that would help - it's pretty hard to tell what's going on from a screenshot, unfortunately.
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Gaaius

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Re: AI Frigates happily blocking friendly fire
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2022, 12:56:32 AM »

Get yourself an odyssey with one HIL on auto
Fight against Dominator (short range variant) so you can keep HIL on it without doing anything
Get frigattes as allies and wait
I just had the random battle mission with Odyssey and 3 lashers, ran sim against Dominator and hat it happen twice that a lasher flies into my HIL LOF
Since the HIL was auto, i didnt kill my own lasher, maybe thats why the AI thinks its okay to fly infront, if the HIL automatically turns of?
I tried to keep the HIL on the Doms shields to not kill it accidentally, but generally left enough space for the lashers
But even on a moving battlefield, the lashers should be agile enough to not get in my LOF
« Last Edit: November 26, 2022, 01:05:38 AM by Gaaius »
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Big Bee

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Re: AI Frigates happily blocking friendly fire
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2022, 04:53:40 AM »

Oh yeah I always have my destroyers get in front of my cruisers. Like noo, I don't want your 2 medium anti-shield balistics attacking the overloaded battlecruiser I want the 2 large anti-armour ballistics!!
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Alex

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Re: AI Frigates happily blocking friendly fire
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2022, 03:44:44 PM »

Hmm. It may have a harder time with broadside ships - it's not avoiding weapons so much as the overall facing of the ship - but for an Odyssey with a HIL + 3 Lashers, I'm not seeing it at all vs a sim Dominator (neither the first nor the second one).
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: AI Frigates happily blocking friendly fire
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2022, 05:48:32 PM »

I would guess it happens more in real combat than in a 1v1. When 'battle lines' form, there's not really any way for frigates to get into range in the middle of the battle line without getting in front of bigger ships with longer range, so unless they end up on the fringes/flanks of the fight, they are mostly just getting in the way.
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huggs

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Re: AI Frigates happily blocking friendly fire
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2022, 01:48:09 PM »

Often when I see this, I have 2 LP Brawlers with 450m weapons where they hang at maybe 800-1000 meters, kind of dancing around (semi-circular movement from left to right and then back again) between my Paragon and whatever enemy I'm shooting at. Sometimes they just briefly block my fire, then circle back out (and then possibly back in again, back out, back in). Sometimes they move over to the other side of my beams. Sometimes they decide to stay right where the beams would go.

This happens when the brawlers are not dodging incoming fire. If they wanted to move into weapons range, they could go in a straight line without blocking anyone.

This happens when there are no other ships around. E.g. the space around these brawlers is not restricted by other ships. So if it's really important for them to dance around, they could easily do so just slightly to the left or right (depending on what side they're on) without blocking any fire at all.
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Alex

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Re: AI Frigates happily blocking friendly fire
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2022, 02:58:02 PM »

Hmm, something seems off here - do you have any idea why the Brawlers wouldn't be engaging the enemy? Are they perhaps assigned to a different task, or is there an "avoid" on the enemy, or do they have timid officers in them, or ... something?
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huggs

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Re: AI Frigates happily blocking friendly fire
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2022, 09:55:15 PM »

This should be with the Full Assault option, if that's the right name. The global assault for your entire fleet.

I have not had any timid officers, so at least I know that's not an issue. However, I am not certain if this has happened to LP Brawlers with officers only, without officers only or a mix.

I'll load up that game again and see if I can get me some fights. If I can find a fight to reproduce this, would a save game file be helpful?
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huggs

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Re: AI Frigates happily blocking friendly fire
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2022, 10:57:11 PM »

Hi Alex,

I know you said a screenshot isn't helpful, but perhaps it says more with a whole series of screenshots. These are all from the same fight. Some images form a series of screenshots of the same brawler blocking in different positions and continually being in the way over extended duration of time. There are brawlers both with and without officers, both engaged and not engaged.

Initial orders: 2 brawlers to closest capture point, 8 brawlers to second closest. Paragon flanked by Legion on each side.
After fleets have finished approaching one another, full assault is on.
All Brawlers are LP Brawlers with the same fit.
Brawler officers are: steady, steady, aggressive, reckless.

This folder shows a series of images. The file names add some description to what's going on.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1AzDNWYNvGGG80R2mvP5w68IYY71-EeFu?usp=sharing

All images of blocking Brawlers are from my first attempt.
One of the images showing initial orders is from a later attempt. I was hoping to be able to provide this as a reproducer, but unfortunately it is not that reliable. I have tried another 4 battles with only a single brawler-block happening.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2022, 10:59:51 PM by huggs »
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huggs

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Re: AI Frigates happily blocking friendly fire
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2022, 11:03:57 PM »

6th attempt and I manged to get another couple of Brawler blocks. This time I selected a bunch of Brawlers and set them to attack one of the conquests closest to my Paragon to make sure I got some brawlers close by.

Possibly the repro is to make sure that some Brawlers are close enough to the Paragon line of fire to make it happen. It should be noted that during the 5 failed attempts, I didn't really have any Brawlers that close to my Paragon most of the time.
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huggs

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Re: AI Frigates happily blocking friendly fire
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2022, 11:08:45 PM »

7th attempt - successful repro again. After initially capturing the two closest cap points, I set Brawlers to defend Paragon just to get them a bit closer. Once the two fleets have closed, I turned on Full Assault, then started to approach closest Conquest with Paragon, and then also set 6-7 Brawlers to attack the same Conquest. Sure enough, some of them would move in front of me. Sometimes while engaging it. Sometimes just moving in front of me while trying to close with it.

This attempt had fewer blocks than the first attempt. But this time the Brawlers also spent a lot of time not engaging, even with just full assault or with full assault and also having an engage order on a conquest, and still they would spend a lot of time just hanging behind my Paragon.

Save game folder: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1QUk0rFxJ5jChBma_byjKVNAGbTBl83ZQ?usp=sharing
The save has a pirate fleet right next to mine. This is where I did all my attempts, and also took the screenshots.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2022, 11:14:29 PM by huggs »
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SafariJohn

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Re: AI Frigates happily blocking friendly fire
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2022, 06:14:59 AM »

Get some free recording software like Bandicam and do videos. Videos are worth a thousand pictures or something like that.
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Vanshilar

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Re: AI Frigates happily blocking friendly fire
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2022, 10:42:34 AM »

7th attempt - successful repro again. After initially capturing the two closest cap points, I set Brawlers to defend Paragon just to get them a bit closer. Once the two fleets have closed, I turned on Full Assault, then started to approach closest Conquest with Paragon, and then also set 6-7 Brawlers to attack the same Conquest. Sure enough, some of them would move in front of me. Sometimes while engaging it. Sometimes just moving in front of me while trying to close with it.

A swarm of LP Brawlers around a target may not be the best test case for frigates avoiding line of fire from larger ships behind them. They all have Safety Overrides which means they have to get close to the target, and with so many of them maneuvering and trying to stay close to the target yet avoiding hitting each other, they're bound to get in front of other ships from time to time. There's simply only a limited amount of space for them to move around.

Not saying that the maneuvering logic can't be improved, but this is kind of an edge case here when the frigates' available options are limited by other frigates in close proximity and constrained by the short weapon range.
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