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Author Topic: What is the "goal" of officers affecting deployment point pool?  (Read 2775 times)

BCS

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What is the "goal" of officers affecting deployment point pool?
« on: November 20, 2022, 12:24:27 PM »

Every mechanic exists for a reason but I'm not sure about this one. In practice all it seems to do is make hard fights(Remnant) even harder. I also don't find it particularly thrilling to have massive swings in DP(up to 1/3 of your entire fleet may become impossible to deploy depending on the fight) since, well, how do you even design a fleet at that point?

My best guess would be that it's something to incentivize using officers? But against full size Remnant fleets it doesn't matter how many and what levels officers you have, you're always pushed down to 160 base deployment anyway.
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vok3

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Re: What is the "goal" of officers affecting deployment point pool?
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2022, 01:27:12 PM »

Yeah I don't get this either.  It's not just Remnants - I've been doing a fair few midgame type battles recently, difficult bounties and the like, and I'm always at 160 regardless of how I'd evaluate the force lineup.  Like, I just had a fight (deserter fleet) where I had a 40-50ish DP battlecarrier, 3-4 cruisers, about as many destroyers, and a whole lot of frigates; up against one 30ish DP battlecruiser, two cruisers, maybe 3 destroyers, and fewer frigates than what I had.  About the same number of officers on either side.  Game says: 160.

It wasn't like it was a hard fight either; I did zero micromanagement, just set "light escort" orders on anything that wasn't a frigate, set capture orders on two strategic points, and drove my carrier into the thick of it.  No losses.  But the game insists that I was at a disadvantage at the start.
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Megas

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Re: What is the "goal" of officers affecting deployment point pool?
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2022, 01:49:15 PM »

My guesses?  To prevent player from getting 60% max DP by bringing high DP ships (Paragon stack) to artificially bump up DP balance as done as some earlier releases.  Also, to make 250k+ bounty fleets harder without having twelve capitals and the rest bulky heavy cruisers (Dominators or Ventures) plus the token Dram (when they obey the thirty ship limit).  In case of Remnants, keep them strong after Radiant DP cost went up from 40 to 60.

This is one of the reasons why I would like to see in-game maximum map size settings reverted back to 500, if not more.  160 DP is not enough for a satisfying fleet fight (if I do not build for solo Ziggurat or double Neural Linked Onslaughts).  I do not care if the enemy gets more ships on the field, I want to deploy my fleet, not deploy few ships to reenact a shonen hero vs. arc villain fight like Goku doing most of the fighting while the rest of the fleet sits on the sidelines sucking on their thumbs while mouthing off exposition.

The game was more fun when I could deploy close to 300 DP worth of ships.
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Alex

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Re: What is the "goal" of officers affecting deployment point pool?
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2022, 01:54:10 PM »

(It's worth noting that when the game went from 500 to 400 DP maximum, it also became possible for each side to deploy 60% of the maximum, meaning the combined total DP is 480. Functionally there's not much of a reduction, just the raw visible number changed *to largely maintain the same maximum as before*.)
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Megas

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Re: What is the "goal" of officers affecting deployment point pool?
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2022, 02:08:17 PM »

(It's worth noting that when the game went from 500 to 400 DP maximum, it also became possible for each side to deploy 60% of the maximum, meaning the combined total DP is 480. Functionally there's not much of a reduction, just the raw visible number changed *to largely maintain the same maximum as before*.)
That does not feel like that when player starts with 40% DP at endgame fights (barring BotB), and unless the player can capture and keep all points, he probably will stay at where he started or get about +20 DP (or 40 if he is lucky to get a comm point instead of sensor/nav).  In a non-BotB build, I expect no more than 180 DP in worst case scenario.  If I can easily keep more than one point captured, my fleet was probably stronger than the enemy to begin with and victory was decided before the fighting began.  Only question is if the victory is flawless, or I lose a ship or three from AI stupidity.  If the fight is genuinely difficult, it is unlikely my fleet will hold more than one objective for long, especially if I do not have fast ships (or had them but lost or retreated them).

When the max went from 500 to 400, it also changed DP balance from ship power to officer power, and Ordos has officer advantage locked in (with 15+ alpha cores and the rest lower grade cores).  So, player went from 300 DP to 160 DP (or 200 DP with BotB).  It is probably no coincidence that most of the strongest builds I see on YouTube have BotB for 200 guaranteed DP and third s-mods.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2022, 02:10:57 PM by Megas »
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Big Bee

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Re: What is the "goal" of officers affecting deployment point pool?
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2022, 04:20:12 PM »

Yeah honestly it's really annoying.

There have been many times I looked at a pirate fleet and went "I can probably win with my better-outfitted ships despite being outnumbered!" only to come to the sudden realization that I can very much not win despite being outnumbered because the DP balance made me twice as disadvantaged as before.
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BigBrainEnergy

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Re: What is the "goal" of officers affecting deployment point pool?
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2022, 05:40:24 PM »

The game could of course just remove the battle size limit, but things can quickly spiral up in scope and most computers wouldn't handle the kinds of endgame fleets that players would build. The next option would be to give both sides exactly equal deployment points, but that massively handicaps the larger fleet. Yes, you would still have an advantage because you have more ships in reserve that can be thrown in as reinforcements, but it makes it far easier for the smaller force. Try bringing a fleet of 100dp vs an enemy twice your size on battle size 200, then reload your file and fight the same enemy on battle size 400. It's going to be much harder.

Giving weighted deployment points to the larger fleet is meant to reflect the disparity in overall fleet size, so a fleet with 1500dp should get 60% vs a fleet of 1000dp 40%. This means that a battle between the two fleets will always be proportional to the actual size disparity between the fleets, but you have to opportunity to get up to 60% by outmaneuvering your opponent and taking the capture points. This reflects the ability of a skilled commander to overturn the force disparity.

The problem with that is that players will work around it by dragging paragon stacks with them, thus a lot of force deployment weight was shifted to officers as a reflection of this idea that skilled leaders can maneuver the battle so they only engage enemy on equal terms even when faced with a larger force. Overall it makes battles more interesting than just giving both sides equal dp from the start, because now you have to strategize around taking/holding points long enough to get up to your full power. Keep in mind it also makes easy fights easier.

Maybe they could always give both sides 40% at the start and you can only get more from capture points. Maybe they could give both sides 60% at the start and make the capture points more powerful so you still gain a big advantage from holding them. I personally don't have a problem with the current system, but there could be a better one for all I know.

Yeah honestly it's really annoying.

There have been many times I looked at a pirate fleet and went "I can probably win with my better-outfitted ships despite being outnumbered!" only to come to the sudden realization that I can very much not win despite being outnumbered because the DP balance made me twice as disadvantaged as before.
In my experience, all you need is few frigates in your fleet so you can rush the capture points and deploy the rest of your forces. This will allow you to hold those points now that your fleet is equal in size but superior in quality. If you don't have strong enough frigates to take the points at the start of the battle it quickly becomes much harder, but not impossible.
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Vanshilar

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Re: What is the "goal" of officers affecting deployment point pool?
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2022, 08:03:29 PM »

In practice all it seems to do is make hard fights(Remnant) even harder.

Well yes...but only in the sense that in the past it was real easy to roflstomp through endgame fleets just by stacking your fleet with capitals. Now it's more even, i.e. 240 DP vs 240 DP.

I also don't find it particularly thrilling to have massive swings in DP(up to 1/3 of your entire fleet may become impossible to deploy depending on the fight) since, well, how do you even design a fleet at that point?

Easy, you just make sure that you grab a couple objectives early on, deploy the rest of your fleet, and then you can forget about the DP unless you lose ships.

My best guess would be that it's something to incentivize using officers? But against full size Remnant fleets it doesn't matter how many and what levels officers you have, you're always pushed down to 160 base deployment anyway.

Yeah, meaning against full Remnant fleets, you'll always start at 160 DP (or 200 if you have BotB) and have to work your way up to 240 DP. They are supposed to be endgame anyway. But in practice it just means you grab a couple of objectives early on and then it doesn't matter after that.

That does not feel like that when player starts with 40% DP at endgame fights (barring BotB), and unless the player can capture and keep all points, he probably will stay at where he started or get about +20 DP (or 40 if he is lucky to get a comm point instead of sensor/nav).  In a non-BotB build, I expect no more than 180 DP in worst case scenario.

I've never had any issue getting to 60% of battle size (i.e. 240 DP if battle size is 400), with or without BotB. And even with BotB the player still has to get 20%'s worth of objectives, because BotB's bonus doesn't stack with the deployment bonus from the objectives. I don't need to keep them either, I only need to hold them long enough to deploy the rest of my fleet.

So, player went from 300 DP to 160 DP (or 200 DP with BotB).

No, player went from 300 DP vs 200 DP by spamming capitals fleet, to 240 DP vs 240 DP by good fleet design and battle strategy fleet. And getting to 240 DP is just a small speed bump at the beginning on the way to the full fleet vs fleet action. In the past, the player was rewarded for lugging lots of capitals around, to fight endgame fights at a 3-to-2 advantage. That clearly was a fleet design philosophy that Alex didn't want to reward. Now, the player is rewarded for having good ship builds and proper strategy and fleet (to capture objectives) at the beginning of each battle.

(Side note: To put this in perspective, my current data is that the average full Remnant fleet has around 1.7 Radiants, 5.5 Brilliants, 4.2 Scintillas, 5.5 Fulgents, 4.1 Glimmers, and 3.7 Lumens. With their DP values being 40 DP (instead of 60 DP), 25 DP, 12 DP, 11 DP, 5 DP, and 4 DP, respectively, this comes out to an average of 352 DP. If we assume that Remnant fleet generation hasn't changed, and that it used to purely be a ratio of player fleet DP to enemy fleet DP in the past, then this means that the player would be lugging around 352 * 3/2 = 528 DP's worth of ships to handle a single Ordos fleet to get that 300-to-200 ratio. In 0.95.1a, I've beaten Ordos fleets, including triple Ordos fleets, with probably over a dozen different fleet setups, never having to use more than 240 DP, and often less, at +400% or more bonus XP. This means that the change essentially affected people who were used to carrying around more than double what was needed for endgame fleets.)

It is probably no coincidence that most of the strongest builds I see on YouTube have BotB for 200 guaranteed DP and third s-mods.

That's just because BotB is the only generalist capstone, meaning it has no particular fleet design direction but is just generally useful for all fleets regardless of their design direction. Since the player gets 15 skill points, enough for 3 capstones if they want, it's not surprising that most players would go for it, since that's enough points for them to get a capstone in their chosen fleet design direction, then get BotB, and then have several other skill points leftover for either a 3rd capstone or on whatever else they fancy.
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BCS

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Re: What is the "goal" of officers affecting deployment point pool?
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2022, 11:10:16 PM »

I've never had any issue getting to 60% of battle size (i.e. 240 DP if battle size is 400), with or without BotB.

Oh I'd love to see your fleet comp then, if you can take and hold objectives on enemy side of the map within first minute or so of combat.
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Amoebka

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Re: What is the "goal" of officers affecting deployment point pool?
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2022, 04:52:55 AM »

His fleet comp is SO Brawler spam, whih is why he always has control over objectives.

Personally, I have being forced to play for points. It reduces the amount of viable strategies in the late game, and, unlike some, I don't enjoy abusing the few broken fleets over and over and over.

Enemy fleets blatantly breaking officer limits (of yeah, the player totally can have 12 level 6 officers with the right skills and mercs! you don't? your fault for playing the game wrong, lmao!), they don't need more DP as well.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2022, 04:54:28 AM by Amoebka »
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Megas

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Re: What is the "goal" of officers affecting deployment point pool?
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2022, 05:58:59 AM »

Easy, you just make sure that you grab a couple objectives early on, deploy the rest of your fleet, and then you can forget about the DP unless you lose ships.
Grabbing them at first is the easy part.  Holding (more than one of) them is the hard part, especially when fast ships (frigates) run out of PPT and are forced to retreat (if they do not die first).  If some of my ships die or run out of PPT and need to retreat, and the enemy takes a point, I cannot reinforce, and the fight is likely decided for the enemy.

No, player went from 300 DP vs 200 DP by spamming capitals fleet, to 240 DP vs 240 DP by good fleet design and battle strategy fleet. And getting to 240 DP is just a small speed bump at the beginning on the way to the full fleet vs fleet action. In the past, the player was rewarded for lugging lots of capitals around, to fight endgame fights at a 3-to-2 advantage. That clearly was a fleet design philosophy that Alex didn't want to reward. Now, the player is rewarded for having good ship builds and proper strategy and fleet (to capture objectives) at the beginning of each battle.
It would only be 200 DP if the map size stayed at 500 (or player took BotB).  But since it did not and max size went to 400 instead, it went down to 160 DP for non-BotB builds.

240 vs. 240 would be okay, but it is not.  It is 240 vs. 160 for non-BotB.  Player can be relied on taking +20 DP from holding one point for up to 180 DP.

Even if Alex wanted to reward officer stacking instead of ship stacking, 160 DP is not enough to deploy enough (large) ships unless player wants a bunch of small ships.  I dislike small ships if I do not take Leadership because they lack PPT and skill support.  I dislike the game pushing player to Leadership if he takes a conventional fleet.

I would have preferred old ship stacking because at least bringing a big fleet had a point even if I could not deploy all the ships.  Now, bringing a big war fleet is pointless and very unsatisfying (if I did not build for solo Ziggurat) because the player has the shonen elite doing all the fighting while his cheerleading ships sit on the sidelines.

Personally, I have being forced to play for points. It reduces the amount of viable strategies in the late game, and, unlike some, I don't enjoy abusing the few broken fleets over and over and over.

Enemy fleets blatantly breaking officer limits (of yeah, the player totally can have 12 level 6 officers with the right skills and mercs! you don't? your fault for playing the game wrong, lmao!), they don't need more DP as well.
So much this.

Ordos used to not break officer limits, but now they do.  The toughest recurring ones have cores for all ships, with more than half of them having alpha cores.

And the biggest problem of relying on the same overpowered fleet over and over again is if player wants to change his fleet, he needs to fire his officers and waste a lot of time training new ones to fit his new ships and lose a bunch of story points that were spent to elite skills on officers without refund.  (This is one reason I go for solo Ziggurat because I do not need to waste a lot of time and story points with officers, plus no need for Leadership.)
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BCS

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Re: What is the "goal" of officers affecting deployment point pool?
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2022, 06:12:35 AM »

His fleet comp is SO Brawler spam, whih is why he always has control over objectives.

Isn't that the guy who fights 3 Ordos simultaneously? Hard to do that with SO ships, especially frigates...
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: What is the "goal" of officers affecting deployment point pool?
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2022, 07:11:57 AM »

I think Brawlers were what Vanshilar was using back in June?

For example:
The fact that most of these strategies boil down to spamming a monofleet of overpowered ships, all with the exact same "optimal" loadout doesn't help the fun either.

Highly disagree. I don't think I've ever used a monofleet for any of my Ordos farming fleets (although Drover spam way back when was pretty close to one, except my flagship was a different ship, and multiple types of fighters were used). Monofleets are generally not as effective as having different types of ships because different ships have different roles, and a single ship is not going to fulfill every possible role effectively. Chances are a monofleet could be improved by having a different ship in it. My LP Brawler fleet was much improved with the addition of several Falcon XIV's to provide Xyphos cover and help against larger targets, not to mention me as the player in a Medusa to jump around to different hotspots.

However, more recently I think he has been playing with a Gryphon heavy fleet led by a Legion (base) or maybe an Onslaught.

Player-piloted Legion XIV (Squalls/HVD/Cobras/Light Needlers but no Ballistic Rangefinder) usually does around 23-25% of overall damage in a Gryphon spam fleet vs triple Ordos, but player-piloted (base) Legion does around 26-28% of overall damage. And the Prox really make the Radiants a breeze, which means that the fight doesn't get disrupted by the initial Radiant nor the end Radiants (where there may be up to 4 Radiants on the field at once), since I just continually use burn drive toward the closest Radiant and unleash my Prox and other weapons on it, then rinse and repeat. That makes the last part of the fight (when the Radiants start pouring in) go really quickly -- and more importantly, safely.

It's a fleet he's used at one point for baseline comparisons between some weapon combination types.

In regards to grabbing points, sorted by speed of completing the fight, I find my options are:
1) Have such an overwhelmingly powerful fleet that you grab 3 of the 4 points early with a really fast ship like an Afflictor, Afflictor (P), or SO Hyperion, and then simple fleet pressure pushes the enemy to the top. 
2) You can grab the two points on your side of the map with slow ships, you can spend like 12 DP on two support Afflictor (P) to initially capture one of the 2 other points, and then have them back off once you've deploy your ships.  Fight at the back line to increase time for reinforcements to reach your ships.
3) Take BotB and play a defensive game on your side of the map or in the corner (if necessary) where you ignore capturing points.  Being immune to being surrounded is worth at least a 20% DP bump in my opinion.
4) Deploy solo initially in a fast, strong ship that cannot be caught by the enemy or can kill anything that does catch it (even an Odyssey works here with the right skills).  Eliminate all frigates and destroyers.  Maybe a few cruisers.  Capture points in a circular motion, after they've gotten it out of their system.  Move to your back line.  Deploy your fleet against a small portion of the enemy force. Optionally retreat with the ship and take control of another if PPT is low.

Essentially, battle tactics come down to force concentration at any one time.  If the enemy has 240 DP to your 200 DP on the field, but only 160 DP of the enemy fleet is engaging your 200 DP fleet while 80 DP is in transit, you have the local advantage.  You just need to kill fast enough that you've killed half of the 160 DP in the time it takes the 80 DP to reinforce.  A highly mobile player ship can also distract large portions of the enemy fleet at a huge DP ratio (say a Medusa versus a Radiant and some Brilliants), and giving your AI officer ships the local advantage as well.

I'm kind of actually worried when the Remnants get an update in the next release to have much, much faster cruisers and a new battlecruiser.  But we'll see.
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Megas

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Re: What is the "goal" of officers affecting deployment point pool?
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2022, 03:19:32 PM »

I'm kind of actually worried when the Remnants get an update in the next release to have much, much faster cruisers and a new battlecruiser.  But we'll see.
If anything, I think Remnants overall might become easier to kill, if it means fewer Radiants (because some get replaced by the new battlecruiser) and more ships with forward-only mobility systems that force them to overcommit and get picked off by your ships before they can run away.
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Thaago

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Re: What is the "goal" of officers affecting deployment point pool?
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2022, 06:49:24 PM »

In terms of capturing points, I find that it depends what game "theme" I'm playing. If I'm playing a game where I am using high performance frigates (scarab/tempest/hyperion/omen/remnant ones/phase frigates in particular, there are probably a few more) then its not hard to just grab a pair of points to start the match... and then later on if the enemy is too strong, cancel those and capture the enemy's points. They will trickle ships to reinforce them at which point a few control group frigates + right click eliminate orders kills the isolated stragglers. Easy way to even up a fight if using some "wolfpack" style ships and if the rest of the fleet can successfully kite the enemy main force.

If I'm going for slow ships that can't outrun the enemy, like a low tech battle line for example, then I rush heavy metal on the control points (maybe leading with some disposable lashers/kites/etc to distract enemy frigates) and then turtle up. Use my player ship to either turn the flank (if using a mobile striker) or to break the enemy wherever I am (if going for a combat specced battleship).
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