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Author Topic: Eagle and (base) Falcon remain anemic  (Read 9299 times)

BCS

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Re: Eagle and (base) Falcon remain anemic
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2022, 12:28:56 AM »

What is the point of writing that even? We're discussing choices for the player fleet, someone being able to kite a larger ship has zero impact on what you will bring with you in fights.

Is this sarcasm my detector failed on? Because most of ships in player fleet are AI controlled. All but one in fact.

I can also add that AI is generally terrible with hardpoint mounts and Apogee is no exception.
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Schwartz

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Re: Eagle and (base) Falcon remain anemic
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2022, 12:34:13 AM »

Just tried it in the simulator.. Apogee has no problem taking apart an Eagle.

Now, custom vs custom loadout may be a different matter.

Paper armor won't matter if the shield stays up. Speed is a non-issue for big fleet engagements. Crunch time happens in a flux battle vs. another cruiser or two.
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Grievous69

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Re: Eagle and (base) Falcon remain anemic
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2022, 12:36:57 AM »

What is the point of writing that even? We're discussing choices for the player fleet, someone being able to kite a larger ship has zero impact on what you will bring with you in fights.

Is this sarcasm my detector failed on? Because most of ships in player fleet are AI controlled. All but one in fact.

I can also add that AI is generally terrible with hardpoint mounts and Apogee is no exception.
What? It's my response to the "AI doesn't know how to do that", when we're discussing AI ship choices. Unless the game becomes pvp it's completely irrelevant.
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TaLaR

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Re: Eagle and (base) Falcon remain anemic
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2022, 12:44:36 AM »

Just tried it in the simulator.. Apogee has no problem taking apart an Eagle.

Sim Eagle has incompetent loadout: 3 Heavy Mortars + 3 Gravitons. Gravitons are not shieldbreaking weapons - their role is flux debuff for enemy weapons. Useful, but doesn't actually win the flux war on their own. Eagle has to equip 2 or 3 kinetic weapons (with Tachyon Lances, if all 3. Though AI can't use lances due to too large flux spike).
« Last Edit: November 23, 2022, 12:48:46 AM by TaLaR »
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Oni

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Re: Eagle and (base) Falcon remain anemic
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2022, 05:43:55 PM »

I wonder if swapping the Eagle's 'Maneuvering Jets' for a 'Burn Drive' would help with the speed issue?  ???
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ForestFighters

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Re: Eagle and (base) Falcon remain anemic
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2022, 06:28:27 PM »

I wonder if swapping the Eagle's 'Maneuvering Jets' for a 'Burn Drive' would help with the speed issue?  ???

That would just make it worse. Maneuvering Jets lets it get in and out of a fight, burn drive is just in, which is usually an easier thing to do anyways.
Not having the retreat ability that Maneuvering Jets gives just makes the Eagle even more fragile.
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gG_pilot

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Re: Eagle and (base) Falcon remain anemic
« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2022, 08:30:53 PM »

Apogee is slow and short ranged ...
Hammerhead can defeat it in completely ...
Tachyon  + 2 Tactical lasers lasers  +  ITU + Adv. Optics = Gives about 1600 range. (feel free count exact number include pilot bonuses) Thanks to Tachyon "pulse" beam delivers damage over short   time period, without need long time target  aim.
add (Squall+ Breach) linked + missile rack = enough rockets for  anything

Pilot : Missile Specialist elite, Field Modulation elite, Gunnery Implants, some other skill,

If you can still encircle somehow with Hammerhead, then I can add Thrusters Hullmod  for better turning, so you cant.

I sold Apogee in my first playthru, because It looked like  too expensive and doing nothing. When you mount Annihilator to the weird positioned small slot, it makes ship dance like madman. Well, after some time I learnt to read  rocket desc. :-] Now, I see, it is actually one of the most useful ships. When you find proper weapons and pilots it offer perfect price to performance ratio.

Definitely prefer Apogee over Eagle or  Falcon.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. Alex,
could you post the upcoming patch  notes  sneak peak? Specifically the balance part, so forums addicts gets some snack in advance. Pour some fuel to dimming fireplace. ;)
Thank you
« Last Edit: November 23, 2022, 09:00:36 PM by gG_pilot »
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Tau Ceti Red Guard

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Re: Eagle and (base) Falcon remain anemic
« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2022, 08:46:47 PM »

Sim Eagle has incompetent loadout: 3 Heavy Mortars + 3 Gravitons. Gravitons are not shieldbreaking weapons - their role is flux debuff for enemy weapons. Useful, but doesn't actually win the flux war on their own. Eagle has to equip 2 or 3 kinetic weapons (with Tachyon Lances, if all 3. Though AI can't use lances due to too large flux spike).
Do you mean phase lances? Because tachyon lance is a large energy and eagle only gets mediums.
Also please show me what kind of hammerhead variant can kill an apogee under AI control that isn't an SO build because I genuinely don't see one that could do it.
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TaLaR

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Re: Eagle and (base) Falcon remain anemic
« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2022, 09:09:38 PM »

Apogee can get decent *soft flux* range. But it's pointless - with max stacked shield hullmods and flux regen Hammerhead out-regens it. The rest is just matter of intermittently holding fire to let flux build-up dissipate. And missiles can get baited, Hammerhead has enough PPT to afford such stalling tactics.

Do you mean phase lances? Because tachyon lance is a large energy and eagle only gets mediums.
Also please show me what kind of hammerhead variant can kill an apogee under AI control that isn't an SO build because I genuinely don't see one that could do it.

Phase Lance, right. AI can't, because it's too dumb. Even most idiot-proof Hammerhead build I tried just let Apogee corner it, although Hammerhead was slowly winning until that point (armor damage + missiles running out on Apogee, still enough PPT to finish on Hammerhead). But ship spec-wise it's trivial.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2022, 09:16:46 PM by TaLaR »
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Grievous69

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Re: Eagle and (base) Falcon remain anemic
« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2022, 11:28:18 PM »

Here they go again with the player 1v1ing a sim ship. It's just Lasher vs Onslaught all over again. Which is the same thing here, you could defeat an Apogee with a Lasher. That must mean Lasher is a better ship lmao roflcopter /s

All discussion (like these) falls flat when someone decides they're the pilot.
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Schwartz

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Re: Eagle and (base) Falcon remain anemic
« Reply #25 on: November 24, 2022, 01:34:20 AM »

Yep, I may have oversold how cheap Apogee is (18 OP is not crazy low and it lost some shield efficiency recently), but its downsides almost completely disappear in fleet combat, whereas Falcon feels like fodder by comparison.

The two line-cruisers *should* be really nice. In practice I think the thing most hurting them is that medium ballistics & medium energy don't synergize well. You either get piddly beams that, when paired with kinetics pale by comparison and paired with explosives are too slow to ramp flux. Or you get energy damage dealers with about 1/2 the range of your ballistics, so they're half a sniper and half a brawler. Ion Beams never feel worthwhile to use. Brawly ballistics and mobility could be a fun option. I haven't used these two ships much. Except for Falcon (P) which is heaps fun in the early game.
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Grievous69

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Re: Eagle and (base) Falcon remain anemic
« Reply #26 on: November 24, 2022, 02:07:21 AM »

I always used Eagle as a do-everything ship, one that rounds up your fleet I guess. Usually equip them with long range ballistics (800 range ones are good as well), and then equip a single Phase Lance or a Pulse Laser to act as anti-fighter or just a bonus weapon when I tell it to eliminate something. With PD all around of course. Yeah you end up with a ship with a weak punch, but it's also one that can guard your other ships, provide kinetic pressure, have a big PD net, and pop frigates that come too close. Obviously people usually prefer straight up more damage, so other choices are cooler, but never underestimate the safest cruiser in the game.
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BCS

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Re: Eagle and (base) Falcon remain anemic
« Reply #27 on: November 24, 2022, 02:07:57 AM »

Speaking of medium energy, next patch will introduce the IR Autolance - very low flux, 1000 range fragmentation burst beam. We'll see how it fits on the Eagle. And Falcon. And Champion.

And speaking of Odyssey, I was playing with them today and had a case of AI spazzing out not once but twice in a single fight(that I've seen): It switched to direct control over one of the Heavy Burst Lasers in the side slots, then tilted the entire ship(because HBL doesn't have arc forward) to fire it at the enemy, which meant the Plasma Cannon was now pointing AWAY from the target and well, not much happened after that. I thought I recorded it but AMD's Instant Replay really doesn't like Java games so all I recorded was my desktop, yay.

Either way the AI definitely switches weapons groups too much. If a ship has turrets it's less of a problem(unless these are really slowly rotating turrets like HILs, Tachyons or Gauss - I once saw a Gauss Onslaught miss three times in a row because AI kept wiggling the ship) but for hardpoints hoo boy, the ship starts dancing and flailing the main armament everywhere almost the moment combat starts.
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Serenitis

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Re: Eagle and (base) Falcon remain anemic
« Reply #28 on: November 24, 2022, 03:14:18 AM »

...but never underestimate the safest cruiser in the game.
Sir I think you may be confused, this is an Eagle thread. :P
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Lortus

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Re: Eagle and (base) Falcon remain anemic
« Reply #29 on: November 24, 2022, 05:06:47 AM »

The main issue eagle has (aside from just being bad at everything and kinda overcosted) is that it can't bring it's 3 medium energies to bear on it's enemy. It basically leaves you to be a 3 medium ballistic ship for 22 dp, which is, terrible. You are basically stuck to SO, which is ok, if a bit slow and overcosted. High range is as previously discussed, trash, and midrange is decent but a bit disappointing for 22 dp. Yes I know of 3 gravitons and 3 HVD or whatever. It's terrible.

If only there was a way to make those energies be used on the enemy...

But wait! Alex literally just teased something that does that!!

I think Eagles should get that hullmod the new remnant ship gets, which increases projectile energy weapon range. Instantly solves all of the problems the eagle has. Give it to the Falcon too I guess. Now you can bring 6 mediums and 3 smalls to an enemy like it was designed to do. For the Eagle maybe also a small speed/manouverability buff and dropping it to 20 dp? The falcon is fine as is just give it the hullmod IMO.

Also Hammerhead can beat an Apogee if player piloted and it can definitely beat Apogee if you gave it that build
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