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[Pratapon51]

I don't have hard numbers to back this claim up, but even after their buff, I still cannot find reasons to field Eagles and Falcons in any fleet approaching 'optimal'. One can make them work, but other cruisers are simply better than they are.

Falcons are fast and low DP, sure, but lack the firepower to effectively perform a hunter-killer role against its intended prey (destroyers), are regularly outdone in damage output by said destroyers, and tend to blow themselves up with alarming regularity versus any hint of resistance, because their intermittent speed advantage does not suffice as a defensive measure.

Eagles are .. offensively mediocre in all regards. In a fleet, the Dominator is a chunk of metal and missiles that'll hold off and wear down an enemy capital. The Champion, a heavy cruiser in the same doctrine group, is not only better armed and armored but also enjoys a greater base speed (50 vs 60) and HEF easily compensates for its on-paper slightly weaker flux stats. The Gryphon is a Gryphon. The Fury carries nearly all the firepower of an Aurora at a significantly lower cost, with a strong ability to aggress. And let's not get started on the Eradicator...

What do you think could be done to help our poor avian cousin-cruisers? Personally, these are some options I considered:

 Falcon
- Slight bump in speed
- Upsize small missiles to medium missiles, or extra pair of smalls
- Inbuilt HSA-like mod to encourage some types of beam as a small ship zapper

 Eagle
- Slight bump in speed
- Extra pair of small missiles
* Built-in Advanced Optics or Energy Bolt Coherer
* Hangar bay? Modular or otherwise

[Grievous69]

I'd still wait for the patch to actually see their place. Along with the new weapons, fighters, hullmods, ship nerfs, buffs (Eagle pretty much confirmed to get buffed), there's just many changes that could indirectly buff them.

Also something being mediocre in all stats isn't that bad, it's nice to have such ships in a game.

[Thaago]

I find Falcons are pretty good now, but I agree on Eagles.

For Falcons I find that they are fast enough to use the 600 range medium energy guns - particularly phase lances - so they have 'decent' firepower for their DP and very good mobility/defenses if kitted for closer ranged engagement. Easily kills destroyers (which it should at 14 DP vs their ~10) and can tank cruiser firepower while being fast enough to hit and retreat. For long range IE ion beams + HVDs or some other 1000 range combination, they have a very good speed + range combo (best in the game by a pretty large margin) at the cost of low DPS.

For Eagles, I don't think they can use 600 range energy weapons effectively because they are too slow compared to the cruisers that have come out recently, and they are a worse kiter than the Falcon (slower) for more DP in the long ranged role.

[Pratapon51]

Yeah, upon reflection I realized I forgot to include my reasoning for Eagle acquiring EBC or something similar. Medium energies don't synergize well with medium ballistics the majority of the time. Equipping a sleek, midweight, Starsector-iconic space cruiser as a medium-beam-carrying fire support boat is not only DP-inefficient but also doesn't feel good, and the alternative builds are not better.

As a craft intended to be a generalist, the Eagle is outperformed by the specialists in nearly all roles anyway because it has awful killing power per DP, which really begins to tell against it as fights approach endgame toughness and quantity.

 

I'd still wait for the patch to actually see their place. Along with the new weapons, fighters, hullmods, ship nerfs, buffs (Eagle pretty much confirmed to get buffed), there's just many changes that could indirectly buff them.

Also something being mediocre in all stats isn't that bad, it's nice to have such ships in a game.

Fair enough.

[gG_pilot]

I'd still wait for the patch to actually see their place. Along with the new weapons, fighters, hullmods, ship nerfs, buffs (Eagle pretty much confirmed to get buffed), there's just many changes that could indirectly buff them.

Also something being mediocre in all stats isn't that bad, it's nice to have such ships in a game.

Are we here yet ?

[BCS]

I used to hate the Eagle with a burning passion but it kinda grew on me once my Eradicators got roflstomped by Radiants a few too many times. They have an actual shield tank and some of the best flux stats in the game - 600 base flux dissipation is high tech level but without the high tech shield tax to go with it. It's very easy to keep an Eagle flux neutral... which means more OP left to be spent on tank.

I will agree that the speed is an issue, I mean there's no reason why "average cruiser" Eagle should be slower than the "heavy cruiser" Champion. If anything it should be 50/60/90 for Champion/Eagle/Falcon which is a +10 buff for Falcon as well. Personally I am a big fan of giving Eagle a built-in hangar, perhaps at the cost of both middle energy mounts. Or maybe a faction version of an Eagle with a hangar?

Also as far as I know the DP of Eagle has already been decreased to 20 in the dev so there's that.

[FooF]

We’ve had some Eagle threads but I don’t recall if a built-in hullmod was ever considered. The Medium Energy mounts are counter-intuitive due to the range mismatch with the Ballistics but what if the Medium Energies got some sort of range boost?

“Aquila Targeting Core” - Increases Medium Energy Weapon range by 150, up to a maximum of 1000. Note that this is applied before other modifiers, such as Integrated Targeting Core.

Oddly specific, I admit, but it would offset the placement disadvantage of the Medium Energies for all assault Energy weapons while leaving Beams where they were. It also mean your Medium Energies would have the same range as 700 range ballistics. It wouldn’t do much for the pairing of Long-range ballistics but that really can’t be expected. But Phase Lances, Pulse Lasers and HBs all having 750 base range would help a lot, I think. It would at least mean that the Eagle isn’t leaving half its firepower off the table at normal engagement ranges.

[Ruddygreat]

yeah, vs the champion & eradicator the eagle & falcon have definitely felt like they've lost their place.
the eagle vaguely has a place as a boring line holder (it can't kill things, but it takes a lot to kill one), but that's just not a particularly good role to have imo.

it'll probably be more viable next update with the new coming weapons, esp. the IR autolance for hull damage, but we'll have to wait and see for that.

as for changes I honestly feel that the eagle itself is fine & other ships are the problem.
Imo the eradicator is a bigger offender than the champion here; at least the champion has a higher DP cost for the better stats & mounts you get from it, while the eradicator is just better for the same cost.

[Megas]

Falcon is fast enough to be useful.  It is practically a midline Medusa.

Eagle is weak for its speed and cost.  Anything it can do, another cruiser can do the job either better or cheaper (or both).

The main things I remember Eagle will get are lowered DP cost from 22 to 20, and the addition of the beam Thumper (IR Autolance or something).  I am not convinced they will be enough to buff Eagle enough if nothing else changes.

[Schwartz]

Also, this may play into why Eagle and Falcon are so uninteresting: Apogee is a bunch of OP too cheap still. It tanks better than any Cruiser, is the cheapest and can mount a Plasma Cannon. Logic?

[TaLaR]

Apogee is slow and short ranged (aside from limited missiles that can be baited and soft flux HIL/TL that can be shield tanked). Eagle,Falcon or even Hammerhead can defeat it in completely one-sided manner, they just need to consistently maintain optimal range (which they easily can due to speed advantage). But AI doesn't do this, so to so many players Apogee seems stronger than it actually is.

Apogee can be a genuine threat with SO, but not in it's base state.

[Grievous69]

But AI doesn't do this

What is the point of writing that even? We're discussing choices for the player fleet, someone being able to kite a larger ship has zero impact on what you will bring with you in fights.

Some folks here are so adamant that Apogee is meh, calling it slow, yet everybody uses them. But that's beside the point since the roles of Apogee and Falcon (Eagle) are completely different.

[Pratapon51]

I don't think the Apogee is too cheap. It's got good stats for what little you pay for. But, like its lore blurb says, paper armor and hardpointed armament can make it a liability in serious fleet engagements.

(Still faster than the Eagle's base speed, though, at 60 vs 50.  )

[TaLaR]

Eagle has effective average speed close to 75 and better hard flux range. It totally dominates Apogee in 1v1 fight.

[Grievous69]

Eagle has effective average speed close to 75 and better hard flux range. It totally dominates Apogee in 1v1 fight.

I'll save this post in case the game ever becomes a 1v1 gladiator arena.