Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Starsector 0.95.1a is out! (12/10/21); Blog post: Hyperspace Topography (10/12/22)

Pages: [1] 2 3

Author Topic: Militarized sub system needs a rework.  (Read 1169 times)

AppleSpice

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 9
    • View Profile
Militarized sub system needs a rework.
« on: November 19, 2022, 10:29:43 AM »

Right now militarized subsystem is extremely underwhelming if you want to use combat ships with civilian hull built-in. The extra 10% percent flux dissipation only applies to base flux dissipation value, which is extremely inefficient for how much op points it costs.

This hull mods purpose is to make civilian hull more viable as combat vessels so I think a small rework would be nice. The non combat focused effect +1 burn level should be removed In exchange for maybe 5/6/7/8% increase of total flux dissipation.
Logged

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 10921
    • View Profile
Re: Militarized sub system needs a rework.
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2022, 10:57:38 AM »

Military Subsystems is weird.  I use it mainly either as +1 burn speed or put logistics hullmods on a hauler without the maintenance penalty.  Otherwise, as long as the ship does not need skill buffs from the likes of Crew Training, Civilian-Grade seems more like a buff by not eating into the DP pool of skills that count combat ships.
Logged

SCC

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3692
    • View Profile
Re: Militarized sub system needs a rework.
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2022, 11:02:16 AM »

I would rather prefer removing Militarised Subsystems entirely, or removing the combat buffs, because the issue with civilian ships is not just the stats, but also the mounts. Mounting any kind of actual weaponry will leave them both badly defended and undergunned for their size. Basically the only exception is Mercury, because it can spam missiles like there's no tomorrow.

AppleSpice

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 9
    • View Profile
Re: Militarized sub system needs a rework.
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2022, 11:16:43 AM »

The main effect of this change would be applied to civilian hull ships meant for combat like Atlas mk 2, Prometheus mk2, etc. I would never put this on a buffalo or troop transport, but for converted combat ships they are extremely under utilized right now because they just don't have enough op points or enough flux dissipation to make them viable even as a budget fleet.
Logged

intrinsic_parity

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2977
    • View Profile
Re: Militarized sub system needs a rework.
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2022, 11:22:21 AM »

Bulk transport gives +2 burn to civilian ships, so MS when you have that skill is actually net -1 burn. And those ships also count against flux regulation and crew training which makes it quite bad as a pure +1 burn skill for dedicated logistics ships IMO.

The only reason I use militarized subsystems now is to remove the sensor debuffs of civilian hulls, particularly on tugs that have horrible sensor profiles.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2022, 10:49:39 PM by intrinsic_parity »
Logged

BCS

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 211
    • View Profile
Re: Militarized sub system needs a rework.
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2022, 10:46:27 PM »

It does seem to be in a rather odd place. It's basically mandatory on every civilian ship you want to use in combat(because only "combat" ships qualify for fleet-wide skills) so it ends up simply being an OP tax on hulls that already tend to have less OP available in general. And on actual civilian logistics ships you never want to use it because they will count towards the combat DP some skills scale off of; it's better to eat the supply penalty from using expanded cargoholds/auxiliary fuel tanks and use efficiency overhaul instead.
Logged

Serenitis

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1369
    • View Profile
Re: Militarized sub system needs a rework.
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2022, 02:00:50 AM »

I don't use it at all. It has too many downsides, and only one of the benefits (sensor profile) is worth anything to me. And there's a cheaper way of getting that (Insulated Engines).

If it is going to be kept, perhaps it might be worth considering rolling in some of the benefits from the depreciated Escort/Assault conversion mods?
Even then I'm not sure I'd use it that much, because it interferes with the Bulk Transport ability.
Logged

Grievous69

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2083
    • View Profile
Re: Militarized sub system needs a rework.
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2022, 02:02:53 AM »

Well if you don't pick Bulk Transport, then it's pretty useful.
Logged
Please don't take me too seriously.

Lortus

  • Lieutenant
  • **
  • Posts: 89
    • View Profile
Re: Militarized sub system needs a rework.
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2022, 02:22:13 AM »

I think militarized subsystems is pretty great as is.

For logistics ships, it switches between two different logistics costs, and gives you some free burn if you aren't taking Bulk Transport. I think Bulk Transport kind of delegitimizes Militarized Subsystems because it's the skill you take on your way to the two yellow combat skills, but I still use it often enough. Also you should consider that not the entire game is spent at 240 DP, and I personally am fine with losing 1% damage to be at a higher burn.

For combat ships, it's an OP tax that gives you some flux and leadership skills for losing OP. I've used combat ships with and without militarized, and as of now, I think it's a bit underwhelming on combat ships in most situations, since the skills that you get to benefit from aren't all that impressive. The flux is also nice, since it can get you from being overfluxed to neutral. I use it on remnant hunting atlases.

What I think is the coolest part of Militarized for combat is the two exclusive hullmods. I wish these were buffed to be actually usable, although it might make them a bit oppressive on the ships that are already good at combat like the Prometheus MkII. I don't even think it needs to be particularly viable. Just maybe stuffing a colossus' cargo with ablative armor, and throwing it in combat where it can soak a couple hits in the early game sounds fun, or maybe fitting a kite with a PD conversion that turns it into a usable PD escort.
Logged

Serenitis

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1369
    • View Profile
Re: Militarized sub system needs a rework.
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2022, 02:46:54 AM »

Well if you don't pick Bulk Transport, then it's pretty useful.
Why would I not pick Bulk Transport though?
It lets me run fast logistics ships without having to use Augmented Drives.
It lets me use Venture as early brick/missile distractions without ruining fleet speed.
It lets me salvage Collossi without having to care about degraded engines. (Also having access to Collossus3s that you can use without paying an OP tax is nice.)
It lets me use "heavy" transports without slowing down my fleet once capitals come into play.

I don't even care about the cargo effect. That skill is all about the burn boost imo.
Plus not having to use tugs frees up ship slots, and keeps the fleet profile (somewhat) sensible.

Also you should consider that not the entire game is spent at 240 DP
In no game I have ever played in the current version, have I ever cared even the tiniest bit about skill limits/dropoff.
If it goes over, it goes over. So what? A smaller buff is still a buff.

« Last Edit: November 20, 2022, 02:48:42 AM by Serenitis »
Logged

BCS

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 211
    • View Profile
Re: Militarized sub system needs a rework.
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2022, 03:17:29 AM »

Well if you don't pick Bulk Transport, then it's pretty useful.

Are you talking about the supply penalty for using expanded cargoholds/auxiliary fuel tanks without militarized subsystems? That's usually not a big deal(the most supply expensive freighter is only 10 after all) and can be partially alleviated with efficiency overhaul.
Logged

Grievous69

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2083
    • View Profile
Re: Militarized sub system needs a rework.
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2022, 04:10:32 AM »

Nah I'm talking about the +1 burn speed you get from the hullmod.

@Serenitis
And none of those points help me in combat or doing combat things, so it's useless for me. And it's never the logistic ships that slow me down, it's the battleships. ADF on logistics is a no brainer since they don't even see combat. But it does make a difference on big ships which could use that extra OP.

I'd take your reasoning in account if only combat ships I had were destroyers and frigates.
Logged
Please don't take me too seriously.

Big Bee

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 113
  • bugs are cool
    • View Profile
Re: Militarized sub system needs a rework.
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2022, 05:17:00 AM »

Honestly the only reason I use it is to not have to deal with the increased maintenance from Expanded Cargo Holds or Auxiliary Fuel Tanks, as well as  to remove the sensor debuff. Mostly the maintenance though.
Logged
Hi I'm not very used to forums sorry

Wyvern

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3201
    • View Profile
Re: Militarized sub system needs a rework.
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2022, 10:44:31 AM »

For me, personally, the reason I'd take it is the sensor debuff it gets rid of.

...But then you get all the issues other people have mentioned (counting against skill limits, reduced burn speed from Bulk Transport, uses up a logistics slot that I'd rather spend on something else)...

And my conclusion is: Just use Revenants. They don't need Militarized Subsystems, they don't count against skill limits, they get full benefit from Bulk Transport, and they actually improve your sensor profile rather than harming it.
Logged
Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

BCS

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 211
    • View Profile
Re: Militarized sub system needs a rework.
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2022, 11:02:37 AM »

Revenants can be tanker replacements but they are bad haulers. 15 supply for 600 cargo is close to Mule level of efficiency, and that actually shoots things.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3