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Author Topic: the use of missiles on the global map  (Read 1274 times)

Levik

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the use of missiles on the global map
« on: October 12, 2022, 10:26:21 PM »

why is there still no weapon in the game that can destroy enemy fleets on the maps of solar systems like in the highfleet game? It seems logical that when a pirate fleet enters your system, for example, your station of the third level in the orbit of your favorite planet, when this fleet is detected, starts firing torpedoes at it.
Is it realistic to do this? The only thing I don’t like is that there are dozens of fleets in the systems, and if they all start shooting at each other, then the game will probably die, or at least start to work more slowly, but this is not certain.
For ten years of development, someone probably came up with a similar idea, if so, I apologize for the repetition and for Googletranslate.
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Jackundor

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Re: the use of missiles on the global map
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2022, 11:34:22 PM »

bc the game has not been built with any consideration to such "strategic scale" weapons and being fired on by a dozen pirate fleets would be cencer. Also, sensor range is not that biig in the grand schema of things. It would require either rebelencing a lot of stuff or introducing a ton of new stuff that then also has to be rebalanced, for something that overall leads to less direct combat
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Yunru

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Re: the use of missiles on the global map
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2022, 02:22:19 AM »

Because we're talking massive distances where your weapon won't reach the other fleet... Well ever, given they'll get moved by something before then (even if it's just local gravity).

There's a reason fights only happen when drive bubbles intersect.

SCC

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Re: the use of missiles on the global map
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2022, 03:06:38 AM »

Because Starsector isn't Highfleet. Alex either consciously decided years ago he's against it, or he simply never envisioned it.

Jackundor

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Re: the use of missiles on the global map
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2022, 10:46:48 PM »

also, you'd have to come up with some massive contrivances to make it make sense lorewise... the old Pilum was mostly useless bc shields and pd would take care of them. If you fired a super long range missile with a nuke then it would just overload the enemy and nothing more, so you'd have to come up with some technobabble as to how they'd be able to deal damage.

plus damaging or killing ships in Starsector is way less of a deal than damaging or killing them in Highfleet
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Killian

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Re: the use of missiles on the global map
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2022, 05:22:32 PM »

Industrial Evolution sort of has this with Artillery Stations. You can't build your own, only refurbish existing ones, but you can protect systems with a titanic volley mortar, triple-shot railgun, or interdiction missiles. That is, assuming you can get to the station to take it out...

Of all of them I think the interdiction missiles are actually the scariest. Mortars and railgun rounds I can dodge - the missiles are persistent, come in from multiple angles, and each hit briefly slows fleets in the AOE. Getting slammed by them is a surefire way to get caught by Ordos, and not everyone is prepared to stand up to that kind of firepower.

These aren't something you can manually control for yourself, though.
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blackrave404

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Re: the use of missiles on the global map
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2022, 12:30:21 AM »

Missiles seem too unrealistic given the distances involved.
HOWEVER
Ability to deploy minefields around system entry points wouldn't be bad
Basically they would function like artificial asteroid fields that mostly affect hostile fleets, since neutral and allied fleets would be informed of their positions.
Granted small chance of neutral and allied fleets (including your own) should remain since accidents and miscommunications happen.
Price could be Heavy Armaments and Fuel plus slightly lowering accessibility of all planets in system.
And they wouldn't last long- after every hit triggering chance drops and after several triggers all mines are used up.
Would help bolstering system defense if hostile fleet is incoming, by lowering CR and damaging ships.
Maybe even several levels of minefield density?
Low, medium and high density, depending on how many resources you are willing to spend and accessibility to sacrifice.
Low lasts 10 triggers starting from 10% chance and dropping by 1% every trigger, after 10 triggers disappears.
Medium lasts for 10 triggers starting from 20% chance and dropping till 10%, at that point downgrades to low density.
High lasts for 10 triggers starting from 30% chance and dropping till 20%, then downgrading to medium density.
Non-hostile ship trigger chances are 10 times lower
Not sure what resource price and accessibility drop would be balanced though.
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blackrave404

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Re: the use of missiles on the global map
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2022, 12:46:08 AM »

the old Pilum was mostly useless bc shields and pd would take care of them

About that.
One thing that puzzles me is lack of phase missiles, mines or suicide drones.
Given the tech in SS it wouldn't be that hard to design one that flies towards enemy and once it detects incoming pd, phases out, gets to target, phases in and detonates instantly (potentially even inside the ship).
Is there a lore reason why those don't exist (phase generators being too large for such weapons, for example) or just because of gameplay reasons?
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Jackundor

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Re: the use of missiles on the global map
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2022, 05:35:13 AM »

the old Pilum was mostly useless bc shields and pd would take care of them

About that.
One thing that puzzles me is lack of phase missiles, mines or suicide drones.
Given the tech in SS it wouldn't be that hard to design one that flies towards enemy and once it detects incoming pd, phases out, gets to target, phases in and detonates instantly (potentially even inside the ship).
Is there a lore reason why those don't exist (phase generators being too large for such weapons, for example) or just because of gameplay reasons?
gameplay wise that would be awful bc it would completely devalue pd and be extremely frustrating to play against due to being completely unavoidable in many situations

lore wise, the lore we have rn doesn't really have anything in the way of technical details (and that's deliberately) so who knows, you could just say that phase coils can't really be manufactured by ships, or that the requirements for them make it unviable etc...
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blackrave404

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Re: the use of missiles on the global map
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2022, 11:15:42 AM »

bc it would completely devalue pd and be extremely frustrating to play against due to being completely unavoidable in many situations

lore wise, the lore we have rn doesn't really have anything in the way of technical details (and that's deliberately) so who knows, you could just say that phase coils can't really be manufactured by ships, or that the requirements for them make it unviable etc...

Well, large pd pulse lasers would still be effective, since moment incoming pd is detected it already turns incoming weapon into molten slag, but yeah, I get what you mean.

If lore is considered, then maybe going size route is the best.
Even largest missiles still need explosives, fuel and other systems beside phase generator.
Assuming Shade is the smallest smallest possible ship that can still hold phase generator and still function as a combat ship, potential phase missile would probably occupy large slot and hold only one missile half the size of Shade.
Somewhat sluggish missile that can still be taken out by large pd pulse lasers.
Missile that has very small amount of explosives on par with medium missiles at best.
Missile that could be triggered by long range lasers to phase out too far to reach target before internal flux capacitors are full and it needs to phase in too far from target, just to be easy prey to any pd.
So extremely impractical and materiel expensive weapon that would be mildly effective in rare specific situations at best.
weapon systems are often all about sweet spots. Maybe minimal phase generator size simply makes such sweet spot for missile non-existent.

Could be included in description if larger missile than Cyclon Reaper would ever be added to the game (failed phase missile experiment that ended up an overpriced firecracker, so instead r&d decided that small front shield generator would be better, cheaper and more effective).
Basically one giant front shielded ICBM that carries fussion warhead and enough matter to make sure blastwave still happen (without sufficient matter, fussion bombs in space are just radiation bombs).
That could at least be somewhat useful against stations and big capital ships, especially if pd is overwhelmed and it manages to slip through.
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Soda Savvy

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Re: the use of missiles on the global map
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2022, 12:05:58 PM »

Ignoring out of universe gameplay considerations, the most likely answer is that strategic missiles would run into the exact same issue regular missiles do.

Point defense and shields. And cost.

You can scale missiles up more and more but eventually you don't have a missile, you have a single use frigate. And what happens to disposable ships in universe? They get annihilated by any half competent ship crew. You'd just get an uptick in Omens or something screening with tac lasers, while bleeding credits that could have been spent on an actual fleet.

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blackrave404

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Re: the use of missiles on the global map
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2022, 04:16:06 PM »

And what happens to disposable ships in universe? They get annihilated by any half competent ship crew.
To be fair vanilla fleet mechanics prohibits true swarm tactics
Currently max fleet size is 30 ships (if I remember correctly)
Meanwhile 360DP is equal to 180 Kites or 6 Paragons

This is where I launched game and realized there is no custom battle option in game to test 180Kites vs 6Paragons :(
(btw could game even run 180 vs 6 battle? what is biggest quantity of ships game can control?)
So can't test it out, but in vanilla you can't make your fleet out of 180 Kites
There is a mod (Fleet size by DP) that circumvents it by using stock DP value for assembling your fleet, but that's modded content, thus outside this discussion.

P.S. Game really needs proper custom battle option, to test out fleets.
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