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Starsector 0.95.1a is out! (12/10/21); Blog post: Hyperspace Topography (10/12/22)

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Author Topic: Hyperspace Topography  (Read 7806 times)

Candesce

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #75 on: October 19, 2022, 05:36:54 AM »

Just traveling from one side of a big system to another is going to take, at minimum, twelve days.
...

Unless there's actually loot there, you don't need to travel far. Putting a waypoint out there is just so your fleet stays traveling in a straight line for a bit, not actually something you intend to reach - and you don't need to go to the other side of the map, just the other side of the star.

This isn't theory, it's practice, though I'll grant I usually do it on survey runs, or on the way back rather than the way out when doing missions.

And it's absolutely worth it in the systems you expect Research Stations in.
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Drazan

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #76 on: October 19, 2022, 09:57:54 AM »

Really neat uptade, love that exploration will be a bit more exciting. I truly hope that this indeed will not cause too much clutter.
With even more intel notifications coming up Im once again asking for a way to view all intel notifications in chronological order and maybe have some filters for it.
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SonnaBanana

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #77 on: October 21, 2022, 06:38:23 AM »

Speaking of hyperspace in general, will we have random new goodies or new types of threats appearing out of the blue? Like hyperspace [REDACTED] or hyperspace cargo crates.
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gG_pilot

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #78 on: October 21, 2022, 08:07:04 AM »

I don't suppose you would be willing to add a light years traveled option to the historian graphs?  Or maybe just an odometer readout to the Hyperspace Topography progress tracker itself (You've traveled X light years in hyperspace, Y of them at burn higher than 20).

Ah, most likely not - it's interesting, but also extremely low priority given the bunch of stuff I've got to do.

Hiruma's idea is simplified  version of my proposal. It says>> lets measure how slip stream are actually used.
Such odometer for dark_mode lenght travel, 20plus speed lenght travel , shift  key lenght  travel  could give a hint, if some feattures are used, overused or ignored. Perhaps information that most travel lenght player spend in dark mode AND Shift key  would bring a light to this stinky corner.
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Arcalane

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #79 on: October 23, 2022, 02:35:48 AM »

Coming back to this blogpost and skimming both it and the replies here gives me some thoughts;

* Tunnels in general are pretty fun, though I find actually staying consistently in the slipstream area is difficult when you want to ride it and all too easy when you don't. At least e-burn can usually punch through them if my route is taking me straight across a tunnel. Sometimes.

* If you've never tried riding a hyperspace tunnel as it takes shape, it's quite an experience. It's one thing to watch the things form, or to ride an established one - it's another entirely to be right on that cutting edge with no idea where you're going to wind up until it actually finishes forming. Be even cooler if you could somehow influence/direct the forming tunnel with your fleet's drives, perhaps...

* Hyperspace ghost signals in general are mostly cool. I think my favourite one is the one I've nicknamed "birds" - the formation that gathers together and then abruptly scatters when you get close. I also once saw a huge formation following a roiling hyperstorm as it meandered through the deep hyperspace 'clouds', which was fascinating. The ones that orbit you and pulse the drive drain are less cool, even if it's basically harmless. Then there was the time I saw a formation that, I swear, was the size of my entire screen and I play fullscreen at 1920x1080, fully zoomed out for hypertravel. I thought I was about to get mobbed by every single [REDACTED] ship in the sector at once.

* ...related note, but it might be useful/handy to have a one-time event that can fire at certain locations a short time after a first encounters with the various types of hyperspace ghosts. It took me wayyyyy too long to figure out that interdiction pulses scare off the drive-draining-mosquito-things. Could also be a good opportunity to inject some Lore about Old Spacer's Tales, or something you can talk to various figures about in bars or at Galatia or something.

* Would also be nice to have some hyperspace config options during galaxy gen or something, although if this hasn't been pitched a bazillion before I'll be terribly surprised (esp. since Adjusted Sector exists). In fact, just deeper galaxy gen customization at all really - more ways to freshen things up might help replayability a little. Maybe an "advanced setup" submenu with a bunch of fiddly bits you can tweak and nudge for density, hyperspace 'density', storm intensity/frequency, tunnel switch frequency, [REDACTED] intensity, all that stuff.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2022, 02:39:15 AM by Arcalane »
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Gothars

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #80 on: October 23, 2022, 06:42:55 AM »

As the S key slows you down, the W key seems a good choice to make you go fast. Could call it gravity sail.

That would make sense, wouldn't it! And the immediacy of that - even compared to an ability toggle - is nice, feel-wise. It might feel weird if AI fleets didn't do it then, though; with the ability you could handwave it as being something the player has learned etc, and have it be unlocked with a mission... hmm.

Is there a reason why an ability should not be activated with a specific key?

You could make it so that the ability key has to stay depressed to keep the ability active, while the ability icon is a toggle.

The S key and the "running dark" ability could be streamlined to work that way, too.
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #81 on: October 23, 2022, 06:59:48 AM »

The S key and the "running dark" ability could be streamlined to work that way, too.

The times when you want to run slow and dark is a sub-set of the times when you just want to run just slow.  If I'm coming into Khazeron and slowing down for the asteroid belts, I do not want to turn my transponder off (which running dark requires) and get hit by a bunch of patrols tanking my Persean League reputation just to avoid some asteroid hits.  You could make it an additional key other than S act like running dark when depressed, but I don't think the ability to only move slow should be removed.
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gG_pilot

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #82 on: October 23, 2022, 07:21:27 AM »

Is there a reason why an ability should not be activated with a specific key?
You could make it so that the ability key has to stay depressed to keep the ability active, while the ability icon is a toggle.
The S key and the "running dark" ability could be streamlined to work that way, too.
Both slowing keys should work the same as toggle switch.
I see main difference in Hyperspace,  I rather use Go_dark_key because it feels it works faster/reliable. e.i. I can press dark_key and go thru the storm  safe, but if I press Go_slow_key at the same distance I am usually hit by storm.
I  thing these two keys should stay and  work almost the same. Only one difference should be, the  Go_slow_key keep Transponder ON.

I keep in mind the gold rule: "Make controls as easy as possible."
« Last Edit: October 23, 2022, 07:33:16 AM by gG_pilot »
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vok3

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #83 on: October 26, 2022, 05:54:54 PM »

The problem is that slipstreams are, 90% of the time, not useful to the player.  They run perpendicular to the paths the player tends to take, not parallel.  So they are just a hassle, and there is no motivation to care about them or harness them. 

It especially doesn't come anywhere in the same order of magnitude as the advantages to be gained from having multiple colonies supporting each other in one system with an integrated economy.  I mean ... just not even in the same universe in terms of utility or motivation.  You'd have to have something like Roiders operating from a colonized planet to exploit resources in the rest of the system, and having other colonized planets in the system would significantly decrease the benefits you get that way, and for this benefit to more than compensate for the expected losses from having interstellar convoys getting attacked.  That might justify it. 

But not slipstreams.  Slipstreams are not desirable.
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SafariJohn

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #84 on: October 26, 2022, 07:49:30 PM »

If Alex really wanted to disincentivize multi-colony systems he'd just remove Mil Base stacking. If you can't stack patrol fleets out the wazoo to stop all assault, then having all your eggs in one basket is much less appealing.
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Serenitis

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #85 on: October 27, 2022, 07:53:23 AM »

If you can't stack patrol fleets out the wazoo to stop all assault, then having all your eggs in one basket is much less appealing.
Being limited to a single military base won't stop people from "single system" colonising, simply because it either lessens or ignores a ton of hassle that many players don't want to deal with as they don't find it all that fun or engaging.
And each individual system not being able to defend itself so well is actually a big incentive to concentrate everything into a single system, so the player can "firefight" problems themselves and concentrate defence as much as possible by other means.

P. sure this change would have the opposite effect.
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Megas

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #86 on: October 27, 2022, 09:38:20 AM »

The issue of S-mods seems to stem due to the fact that story points are used for a lot of things (and sometimes in monstrous quantities) yet the adquisition of them becomes increasingly scarcer overtime.
Perhaps story points need a bit of a revision?
For me, it is more like some sinks have insatiable appetites that can never have enough story points, namely colonies.  Officers can also be a huge sink if player needs to fire all of them (if he gave them elite skills) for new ones anytime he changes the fleet and need new officers molded to their assigned ships.  Those sinks offer no bonus xp, unlike s-mods.

At level 15, story points can be earned at a decent rate when player fights endgame fleets, especially Ordos, with +500% xp.  Anything less is too slow.  This is one reason why fighting Ordos is more mandatory and not really optional.


If you can't stack patrol fleets out the wazoo to stop all assault, then having all your eggs in one basket is much less appealing.
Being limited to a single military base won't stop people from "single system" colonising, simply because it either lessens or ignores a ton of hassle that many players don't want to deal with as they don't find it all that fun or engaging.
And each individual system not being able to defend itself so well is actually a big incentive to concentrate everything into a single system, so the player can "firefight" problems themselves and concentrate defence as much as possible by other means.

P. sure this change would have the opposite effect.
I agree with Serenitis.  If player cannot stack bases, then player may need to stack all colonies for several patrol HQs in one system, or if that is not enough, have all systems close enough so that multiple expedition events aimed at the player are all funneled in a single general location no bigger than a constellation.

Having two or three expedition alerts, plus pirate activity and maybe a pather cell targeting your colonies all over the sector because player scattered his colonies in all four corners... AND protecting the core worlds from pirate raids (and maybe Pathers too) so they do not decivilize (or at least protect their stability so you can raid for blueprints safely) because they are incapable of defending themselves, is a babysitting nightmare.

Players stack bases in a system so they can defend themselves without player intervention, letting the player do what he really wants (or not if he needs defend an NPC target like any core system that is not Askonia from pirates) instead of being chained to his system to defend it or let it go up in smoke.
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interviglium

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #87 on: November 03, 2022, 10:46:40 PM »

There's a lot of discussion in here about the hyperlanes, but I want to touch on the idea of building sensors, scanners etc to peer into hyperspace and map it's topography has some really cool potential to it. I love the exploration aspect of Starsector, and I personally just want more options for exploration.

On top of getting the sensor data, maybe if you build enough sensors overlapping, or upgrade sensor buildings (or chuck an AI core in them) your sensors become powerful enough to start to detect the small objects outside of systems. The number of systems that are present in a sector is finite, but things floating in the empty space between systems could be infinite. Potentially your sensor stations could detect these things, and with a certain type of ship, or an item like the Janus device etc, or an elite upgrade to the skill that lets you do transversal jumps, you could temporarily (read: one trip) open a jump point out into interstellar space to check out what your sensors have picked up.

You could tie it into the scanning in hyperspace function to help localise the trace.

The better your sensors/greater your coverage net (to help encourage spreading out - you could build hyperspace sensor outposts on distant planets etc) the 'deeper' you can reach back into realspace.
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woodsmoke

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #88 on: November 04, 2022, 11:54:28 AM »

The problem is that slipstreams are, 90% of the time, not useful to the player.  They run perpendicular to the paths the player tends to take, not parallel.  So they are just a hassle, and there is no motivation to care about them or harness them.

Speak for yourself. I use slipstreams fairly frequently. As I said above, I generally plan my expeditions outside the Core around the stream cycle specifically to take advantage of them; knowing I can jump into a stream and be at the target system in a day or two at most means I can pick up and fulfill a lot more survey contracts and make a lot more profit.

IME deep hyperspace storms are way more irritating and disruptive than slipstreams, not least because there's a hell of a lot more deep hyperspace to navigate (and jumping in a stream, rather conveniently, means I don't have to).
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FastestDraw

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #89 on: November 06, 2022, 05:29:57 AM »

Hyperspace getting more fleshed out sounds incredible.

One thing I'd really love - reasons to head out into hyperspace in a tricked out frigate with almost nothing else.

Flying hyperspace with a tempest+engine upgrades is fun, where the deep hyperspace slows you less and there is this very real risk thanks to having just one ship with all your supplies in it.

It makes getting into the slipstreams a lot easier and feel a lot more fluid, but basically the only reason to right now is mapping out gates so you can return later, and that one 'sneak the transverse jump' mission.

This system already looks like a neat way to incentivise that playstyle - picking up that increased burn level quick by running around with volatiles and a frigate sounds sweet, but there honestly isn't enough out there for small ships to do in the sector at large, so It'll get stale quick.

Some missions like 'intercept dead drop' with a very short timer and distance to travel, or 'race to X system' where you have a bunch of AI speed 10 ships also trying to reach that system first would be a lot of fun, and help encourage the fun 'go fast' part of hyperspace while minimising the sluggish 'carry supplies and crew to survey planets / salvage wrecks'. Even some missions intended to be completed entirely in hyperspace - hunting solo pirates or weird signals, would help lot.
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