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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Hyperspace Topography  (Read 14836 times)

AntMatriarch

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #45 on: October 13, 2022, 09:05:51 PM »

With all these event things popping up, could you also make events for player actions? For example, if the player consistently saturation bombards faction worlds, they would have events that would send a hit fleet against the player, big fleets defending core worlds that won't chase the player far away and annoying fast scouts that stalks the player (not letting the player be too close or too far away) as they move around the core world. If player colonies uses lots of AI cores in their colonies, they might be contacted by Tri-Tachyon to have some kind of deal behind hegemony's back. Maybe a 'person of interest' meter that rises as the player's kill count increases and they establish colonies where the player's actions get increasingly more weighty (get more rep for the same actions).
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SonnaBanana

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #46 on: October 13, 2022, 10:37:13 PM »

With all these event things popping up, could you also make events for player actions? For example, if the player consistently saturation bombards faction worlds, they would have events that would send a hit fleet against the player, big fleets defending core worlds that won't chase the player far away and annoying fast scouts that stalks the player (not letting the player be too close or too far away) as they move around the core world. If player colonies uses lots of AI cores in their colonies, they might be contacted by Tri-Tachyon to have some kind of deal behind hegemony's back. Maybe a 'person of interest' meter that rises as the player's kill count increases and they establish colonies where the player's actions get increasingly more weighty (get more rep for the same actions).
Yes please!
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gG_pilot

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #47 on: October 14, 2022, 04:10:15 AM »

Alex, I see your reluctance to allow use slipstream as two way highway.
I dont understand why?
 the main problem of current system is, slips are perceived as nuisance more than positive.
in my last game I used slips intentionally for travel about 3 times per whole game walkthru. Other cases I traveled by slips was not intentional disasters, when I needed to load  quick-save again.  (it swallowed me and drag over a half universe)
Adding so much attention to mechanic which is used very rarely is walking  around invisible elephant in elevator.

Could you, at least,  make this:   use the item Hyperspace Topology data  for  changing slip orientation ?
e.i. when you are in the stream and use the item Hyperspace Topology data item, then  slip changes the flow.
This improvement, radical rise up usability of slips, from 1-5 per walktrhu to about 10 per walkthru.
Thanks
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Megas

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #48 on: October 14, 2022, 06:02:03 AM »

With all these event things popping up, could you also make events for player actions? For example, if the player consistently saturation bombards faction worlds, they would have events that would send a hit fleet against the player, big fleets defending core worlds that won't chase the player far away and annoying fast scouts that stalks the player (not letting the player be too close or too far away) as they move around the core world.
I like for them to declare total war and fight all out if they can, or if they cannot (because I am winning after beating them down), then surrender or be wiped off the map.  And for Indies to get out of the way of a total war - don't take sides during a total war when both sides are attempting to kill each other's planets via sat bombs.

Currently, factions only stop when they literally cannot fight after they have been wiped off the map.  Would be nice to tell them to knock off their idiocy when my faction gets the upper hand in a war.

I usually sat bomb worlds as retribution for excessive expeditions, especially after I save them from pirate raids for the umpteenth time.
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #49 on: October 14, 2022, 07:33:00 AM »

Cool and interesting blog post Alex.  As you say, it definitely has a "Do X to get better at X skill" feeling.  And it does show off how flexible a simple and integrated progress tracker can be.  Like others, I fully expect modders to use (and possibly abuse ;) ) this extensively.

As feedback, the ability for colonies to reveal nearby slipstreams is going to be an almost negligible incentive to split colonies up in far flung locations for me.  It's not going to overcome the various game factors which push me towards putting them all in one spot (ease of dropping off colony items and cores, easier defense either via patrols or simply getting back via gate to intercept, building up contacts all in one system over time, distant from core for export profits), especially with the gate network being available mid to late game.  Primary consideration for me these days is there a gate in system or a nearby system, since so much of the campaign map interaction is spent just traveling.  Slipstreams are just too random and unreliable.

Actually, I would hypothesize even with full slipstream information, I still wouldn't end up using them that much.  I should try playing a campaign run through with the entire slipstream network visible at all times, and see how much I take advantage of them in my traveling, maybe recording the number of light years spent traveling by stream vs normal hyperspace or gate travel.  I don't suppose there's a travel log mod which records your lightyears traveled and how?  If I had to guess in my current games (with imperfect knowledge), less than 10% of my light years traveled are via slipstream (in a useful direction), whereas gate travel is probably around 50% of my light years travelled late game (and can reach 100% gate travel if I've got a gate in my colonies and a gate in a remnant system and I'm farming cores for some reason).  As it is, I don't find myself using the neutrino detector in hyperspace, as simply fully zoomed out and unchained view catches a fair bit.

Also, if you want slipstreams to factor into planning, they should be available via toggle on intel maps just like fuel range, both the main intel map and those which are used when agreeing to missions from contacts.  As it is right now, if you want to see if you know of slip stream in that direction, it's 2-3 key presses every single time to get to the main map when accepting a contract, and it means flipping back and forth between the intel and main maps when plotting a long looping trip.  Essentially, there is a fair bit of UI friction to plotting a trip with slipstreams if you have any sort of mission objectives.

As for colonies to be far from each other, what I would want is a 100% reliable mechanic that works every time and impacts a good fraction of your campaign map time.  Being a fuel depot is one such reason, but it's easy enough to grab a Prometheus.  And once the gateways are open, any gateway system becomes an effective drop off and refuel stop as well.  Slipstreams have to compete against that kind of convenience if they're going to be a serious consideration for colony placement.  They'd have to somehow become superhighways in and of themselves.  Like if you could build a beacon that ensured one of those slip stream generating hyperspace mysteries was waiting outside the system every few months, summoned not unlike a sandworm by a thumper on Dune, then that would turn colonies into a reliable superhighway every few months.  But unless the mechanic has that much of an impact, having all my colonies in one gate system is going to win out.  Or gateways become some kind of negative, but that just means you put them one system over from the gateway.
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MattyK

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #50 on: October 14, 2022, 08:35:24 AM »

This game just gets bigger and bigger all the time, I love it, though I do wish our more outlandish setups (the modded playthroughs) had a bit more headroom in regards to general performance though. At the moment it feels like the biggest hit to your system is going into hyperspace when you have more than 2-3 modded factions.

Tangentially-related, have you found anything to do with those 'hyperspace whirlpools' yet? I could certainly see it as an interesting way to spice up exploration, have them randomly occur on certain star classes (supergiants, black holes and the likes), to add a little bit more intrigue to hyperspace outside the attrition of storms and the chance encounter with a scavenger super-fleet that dearly wants your scrap, willing or not.

Heck, even as a way to throw you into a random system in that constellation would be interesting (or introducing new sources of transverse jump points on the sector map).
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Alex

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #51 on: October 14, 2022, 09:24:21 AM »

Every time I use a slipstream I end up getting ganked by pirates or luddics, so I don't bother any more and I probably won't bother even with this new stuff. Its easy enoughto just cart around enough fuel to get everywhere and credits are meaningless outside the mega early game. Useful for new players? Maybe, or it gets them stuck in deep space since they can't rely on the half fuel indicator.

Hmm. On the one hand, fair enough! On the other hand, where those ambushes are is fairly predictable and it's timed so you have enough time to respond. *And* it's an indicator there may be a base nearby.

I can't speak to sneaky espionage problems caused by enemy fleets running SB but, for my part, the only time I ever toggle double time flow on is when I hit Shift+M4 to activate my transverse jump. By contrast, I use SB all the time.

I'd have no problem with Alex adding an option to change how much the shift key increases time flow but, if my only options were "crawl along at regular speed" or "the entire world zooms about like a crack-addled space monkey," I'd consider that a pretty significant step back from how things stand now.

(Duly noted!)


With all these event things popping up, could you also make events for player actions? For example, if the player consistently saturation bombards faction worlds, they would have events that would send a hit fleet against the player, big fleets defending core worlds that won't chase the player far away and annoying fast scouts that stalks the player (not letting the player be too close or too far away) as they move around the core world. If player colonies uses lots of AI cores in their colonies, they might be contacted by Tri-Tachyon to have some kind of deal behind hegemony's back. Maybe a 'person of interest' meter that rises as the player's kill count increases and they establish colonies where the player's actions get increasingly more weighty (get more rep for the same actions).

Definitely possible! That's really one of the "problems" with these Events - the mechanic can be used for just about anything, so it's going to take some figuring out what it's best for in the specific context of the game.


Alex, I see your reluctance to allow use slipstream as two way highway.
I dont understand why?
 the main problem of current system is, slips are perceived as nuisance more than positive.
in my last game I used slips intentionally for travel about 3 times per whole game walkthru. Other cases I traveled by slips was not intentional disasters, when I needed to load  quick-save again.  (it swallowed me and drag over a half universe)

Once again, you can use emergency burn in a slipstream to get much better control! If one's problem is that a slipstream dragged them "half the universe away", the issue is likely that the game didn't explain this particular interaction (which, in fairness, crops up in various terrain-related situations, so my expectation was that trying this would be reasonably natural), not any inherent issue with slipstreams.

Your suggestion is interesting, but I think it's unnecessary; I think if you play around with them while having a more complete understanding of how they work, you would find them more useful than you have so far. And, hopefully one of the additions here - ways of making slipstreams visible on the map - will help players get a better understanding.

And, finally, even if I wanted to make slipstreams still more useful (which, currently: no), I'm not sure about the "feel" of reversing their direction. That feels like a bit much for the player to be able to do.


As feedback, the ability for colonies to reveal nearby slipstreams is going to be an almost negligible incentive to split colonies up in far flung locations for me.  It's not going to overcome the various game factors which push me towards putting them all in one spot (ease of dropping off colony items and cores, easier defense either via patrols or simply getting back via gate to intercept, building up contacts all in one system over time, distant from core for export profits), especially with the gate network being available mid to late game.  Primary consideration for me these days is there a gate in system or a nearby system, since so much of the campaign map interaction is spent just traveling.  Slipstreams are just too random and unreliable.

Yeah, it definitely wouldn't! This is just one part of the puzzle there, and I wouldn't expect to see all of the pieces in the next release.

Actually, I would hypothesize even with full slipstream information, I still wouldn't end up using them that much.  I should try playing a campaign run through with the entire slipstream network visible at all times, and see how much I take advantage of them in my traveling, maybe recording the number of light years spent traveling by stream vs normal hyperspace or gate travel.  I don't suppose there's a travel log mod which records your lightyears traveled and how?  If I had to guess in my current games (with imperfect knowledge), less than 10% of my light years traveled are via slipstream (in a useful direction), whereas gate travel is probably around 50% of my light years travelled late game (and can reach 100% gate travel if I've got a gate in my colonies and a gate in a remnant system and I'm farming cores for some reason).  As it is, I don't find myself using the neutrino detector in hyperspace, as simply fully zoomed out and unchained view catches a fair bit.

Honestly? If it's at 10% while not having good info on their placement and after 50% from gates, then that's not bad at all.

I'm curious about zooming out and panning around, though; at 1650x1080 and max default zoom, it doesn't even come close to letting you see beyond the radar (which shows all slipstreams in range), let alone the range of the Neutrino Detector - which several times that? It's 10 light-years.

Also, if you want slipstreams to factor into planning, they should be available via toggle on intel maps just like fuel range, both the main intel map and those which are used when agreeing to missions from contacts.  As it is right now, if you want to see if you know of slip stream in that direction, it's 2-3 key presses every single time to get to the main map when accepting a contract, and it means flipping back and forth between the intel and main maps when plotting a long looping trip.  Essentially, there is a fair bit of UI friction to plotting a trip with slipstreams if you have any sort of mission objectives.

That's a good point, let me make a note to take a look.

Like if you could build a beacon that ensured one of those slip stream generating hyperspace mysteries was waiting outside the system every few months, summoned not unlike a sandworm by a thumper on Dune

(Funny, I have a "random neat idea" note about this exact thing, though as an ability rather than a colony building. A building (or an item) might be more appropriate, hmm.)

This game just gets bigger and bigger all the time, I love it, though I do wish our more outlandish setups (the modded playthroughs) had a bit more headroom in regards to general performance though. At the moment it feels like the biggest hit to your system is going into hyperspace when you have more than 2-3 modded factions.

You're not running a mod that increases Sector size, are you? A few modded factions should not have that kind of impact on hyperspace performance - hardly any, really - unless they're doing something inadvisable. Or if you're running a mod that increases the zoom-out distance, that would not be good for the framerate in hyperspace especially.

Tangentially-related, have you found anything to do with those 'hyperspace whirlpools' yet? I could certainly see it as an interesting way to spice up exploration, have them randomly occur on certain star classes (supergiants, black holes and the likes), to add a little bit more intrigue to hyperspace outside the attrition of storms and the chance encounter with a scavenger super-fleet that dearly wants your scrap, willing or not.

Heck, even as a way to throw you into a random system in that constellation would be interesting (or introducing new sources of transverse jump points on the sector map).

Well, I have found something to do with them - eliminate the bug that caused them! :D (Thanks to Thaago for providing an especially-handy vanilla save so this could finally happen.) More seriously, though, they look awful, so it's not something I'd want to actually use for anything. And making something like that look good would be like a weeks-long effort and might even be better off done from scratch without reusing the slipstream stuff...
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Gothars

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #52 on: October 14, 2022, 09:47:22 AM »

I hadn't really thought about it, hmm. The main problem with exploration XP - especially for this - is that exploration is mostly linear, while XP required to level up is extremely not. So that just makes finding meaningful XP values for exploration things difficult.

If you only benefit from the XP in early game, that seem OK, too - after all it's way more challenging to discover stuff with you early game frigat than your late game exploration fleet.

After reading this, the first thing that came to my mind is the potential new Crew/Marines/Pilots experience system separate from the Trading/Inventory system, which from my understanding being coupled to it was the main drawback of the earlier EXP system.
... oh! Oh. That's very interesting. The main problem with crew XP was just the *enormous* hassle of keeping track of multiple crew types, anywhere crew is used. So yeah, this could potentially abstract away from that, but then it's basically just "an additional bonus/parallel XP bar" which... it could be interesting, depending on what the contributing factors are and what the incentives are and so on. Larger topic and I haven't really thought it through, but: neat idea, thank you for bringing it up!

This idea could finally be a great way to make you want to keep your poor crew alive: loosing crew should also subtract from the crew XP bar. You might be easily replacing warm bodies, but not their experience!

One niche (but nice for world building) effect of experienced crew might be that they are loyal and can keep their mouths shut when on shore leave: your "transponder off" combat encounters have less influence on faction relations. Your smuggling suspicion doesn't increase as fast. New bar encounters are possible. They go on longer without pay.

I'm against combat bonuses from crew, I think there are more than enough factors that influence your combat stats.



A large part of the fun, though, is also what you're actually doing. Sneaking around in a star system full of Redacted and picking it clean without getting in trouble is already fun, regardless of any second-to-second fun from just the movement system itself. Fundamentally, I think you need gameplay with risk and reward and so on - the movement system taken in isolation being fun is great, but I think that's kind of parallel enhancer to the other stuff needed to make it fun, not a requirement or a solution for it being fun/not fun, if you know what I mean? It's part of why slipstreams cut down on fuel use so much; "using fuel" is the fundamental cost of going through hyperspace and "doing it well" seems like it should involve reducing the fuel cost.

Yeah, I hear you. Then again, as long as long stretches were "nothing happens" exist, the movement system will have to stand on its own on a regular basis. The worst emptiness-offender is not even hyperspace though, but big empty systems. Some interesting movement could be applied here too: Raising a solar sail (ability) near the sun to be blown into the system fringe (aka "make your own pulsar but without the hurt")? Using a planet's gravity well to slingshot yourself through the system? Maybe a jump points acts like a pinball bumper if you don't go trough?

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gG_pilot

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #53 on: October 15, 2022, 03:30:22 AM »

I see your reluctance to allow use slipstream as two way highway.
I dont understand why?
 the main problem of current system is, slips are perceived as nuisance more than positive.
Could you, at least,  make this:   use the item Hyperspace Topology data  for  changing slip orientation ?
e.i. when you are in the stream and use the item Hyperspace Topology data item, then  slip changes the flow.
in my last game I used slips intentionally for travel about 3 times per whole game walkthru.

Your suggestion is interesting, but I think it's unnecessary; I think if you play around with them while having a more complete understanding of how they work, you would find them more useful than you have so far. And, hopefully one of the additions here - ways of making slipstreams visible on the map - will help players get a better understanding.

And, finally, even if I wanted to make slipstreams still more useful (which, currently: no), I'm not sure about the "feel" of reversing their direction. That feels like a bit much for the player to be able to do.
Consume an item "feels like a bit much for the player to be able to do"  ? WHAT  ? Please, count the number of keyes which player MUST control at one moment in battle, it is about 20! Well, an average earthling has only 10 fingers. Then you say that consume one rare item is too much ?

Perhaps make an in-game metric system which measure and send back to  dev data about  usage of features could bring light into  area. Perhaps simple measure of lenght_travel_in_slip, lenght travel in hyper cload, lenght travel in dark mode,  lenght_travel_with_Shift_pressed could give developer an idea how the game is actually played. Current hyper_space travel is not fun, and incoming features are not going to change it. Just saying.

Also, make a metric how many keyes and how often are pressed in combat could bring some QOL improvements.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2022, 03:45:23 AM by gG_pilot »
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FelixG

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #54 on: October 15, 2022, 04:17:13 AM »

I am also of the opinion that as it stands, the slipstreams are next to never useful, and more of an annoyance than anything else. I can count the number of times they have actually been helpful or interesting on one hand, rather than all of the other times of "Oh great, gotta burn more fuel with an E-burn to avoid this annoyance yet again."

Personally, I also think they should be a two way street, depending on the angle at which you enter them from. I am fine with E-burn being needed to escape one for the most part, but most of the time when they spawn they are an active hinderance. Making them actually useful depending on your angle of entrance would give a reason to build those colonies.

The new colonies would actually let you find something of benefit, rather than just find a way to avoid an annoyance again and again.
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smithney

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #55 on: October 15, 2022, 06:12:56 AM »

I think the voices saying slipstreams are almost never useful should reread Alex's previous blog post on them. Personally I feel like a lot of the frustration comes from the fact that their usefulness is very polarizing at first glance and the path to learn using them isn't very clear. There's no indicator that using Emergency Burn might help a lot with dealing with them, even then a lot of players would be reluctant to use something labeled 'Emergency' so promiscuously. Neutrino Detector is another tool that could help, but it's an ability that feels too gimmicky to even bother learning how to use, let alone to spend Volatiles on. Knowing which direction the streams flow is also mostly pointless; it's not a factor to count in when picking up missions or bounties. Finally, I doubt most people are even capable of learning the slipstream patterns. The only obvious one is the one with the big circular stream. Other patterns seem too random to recognize from up close.

Regarding the last point, getting "weather reports" of the slipstream situation where the player's headed might make players get more comfortable with them. If I were to summarize my view of slipstreams, they are too frustrating to the unfamiliar, but not reliably beneficial to be worth learning. The upcoming update might change the situation, so I'm curious how it pans out.

Perhaps make an in-game metric system which measure and send back to  dev data about  usage of features could bring light into  area. Perhaps simple measure of lenght_travel_in_slip, lenght travel in hyper cload, lenght travel in dark mode,  lenght_travel_with_Shift_pressed could give developer an idea how the game is actually played. Current hyper_space travel is not fun, and incoming features are not going to change it. Just saying.

Also, make a metric how many keyes and how often are pressed in combat could bring some QOL improvements.
Well, yes it could. It would also need resources I think are pretty much out of scope. Don't forget we're talking about a very indie game that likely won't be getting any significant updates post-release, not an MMO. Do you really think developing a script like this is worth the effort?
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Doctorhealsgood

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #56 on: October 15, 2022, 07:34:25 AM »

I just remembered but hyperspace slipstreams have a roughly predictable cycle on what times you can find them on a cardinal direction yes? Would it be possible to add this information to either intel or UI? It's a very wide and predictable estimate so it might fit nicely on one of the earlier stages of the topography event.
Talking about topography would it be possible to make deep hyperspace a bit more noticeable on the minimap thing? Sometimes i feel like it blends a bit too well with everything else.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #57 on: October 15, 2022, 08:29:35 AM »

I like the general direction of these additions, but I do feel like this kinda steps on the toes of the skill system. It sort of brings into question why a lot of benefits are given through the skill system and not through this system. I think there's definitely a place for both the skill tree and the event stuff, but I would like it if there was more of an explicit philosophy behind why effects are put in one vs the other.

To me it feels like 'QOL' type stuff, and small numerical benefits make sense for the event system, while skills could be more about big run-altering stuff. I like that the event system lets you get the all QOL stuff you want which I think is valuable.
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Alex

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #58 on: October 15, 2022, 09:00:24 AM »

If you only benefit from the XP in early game, that seem OK, too - after all it's way more challenging to discover stuff with you early game frigat than your late game exploration fleet.

Hmm, yeah.

This idea could finally be a great way to make you want to keep your poor crew alive: loosing crew should also subtract from the crew XP bar. You might be easily replacing warm bodies, but not their experience!

One niche (but nice for world building) effect of experienced crew might be that they are loyal and can keep their mouths shut when on shore leave: your "transponder off" combat encounters have less influence on faction relations. Your smuggling suspicion doesn't increase as fast. New bar encounters are possible. They go on longer without pay.

I'm against combat bonuses from crew, I think there are more than enough factors that influence your combat stats.

Yeah, I could see that. The only thing there is that *if* I was going to bring crew XP back in some way then I'd kind of like to tie it to ships, to give them more history/personality/etc; that seems like a high-impact thing feel-wise, regardless of how minor the bonuses might be.


Yeah, I hear you. Then again, as long as long stretches were "nothing happens" exist, the movement system will have to stand on its own on a regular basis. The worst emptiness-offender is not even hyperspace though, but big empty systems. Some interesting movement could be applied here too: Raising a solar sail (ability) near the sun to be blown into the system fringe (aka "make your own pulsar but without the hurt")? Using a planet's gravity well to slingshot yourself through the system? Maybe a jump points acts like a pinball bumper if you don't go trough?

Ah! But you don't *know* that big empty system is actually empty, I think that's pretty big.

On the other hand, a solar sail and a gravity slingshot both sound like fun things! Like, a lot of fun. Hmm. Both could be initiated by interacting with the star/planet, even (so: no ability slot), though that'd break the movement flow.


Consume an item "feels like a bit much for the player to be able to do"  ?

I meant in the "reversing the direction of a 40-light-year-slipstream is more than it seems like the player character, in-fiction, would be able to casually do" sense.


Knowing which direction the streams flow is also mostly pointless; it's not a factor to count in when picking up missions or bounties.

(Personally, I find myself doing a few things that needed doing in the core systems if that might help "line up" the slipstreams with my current objectives. Though, yeah, whether you can do that depends on the timing of the missions you have. But if the goal is "check out this medium-danger system I spotted on the way back from the previous exploration trip"? Then yeah, sure.)


I just remembered but hyperspace slipstreams have a roughly predictable cycle on what times you can find them on a cardinal direction yes? Would it be possible to add this information to either intel or UI? It's a very wide and predictable estimate so it might fit nicely on one of the earlier stages of the topography event.

It's "going right in the first half of the year, left in the second, and dissipating in the 6th and 12th months". And, hmm, that's an interesting idea, I'll make a note. The slipstream tooltip touches in it but doesn't actually explain the specific directions, just that it's a yearly cycle.

Talking about topography would it be possible to make deep hyperspace a bit more noticeable on the minimap thing? Sometimes i feel like it blends a bit too well with everything else.

This hasn't been my impression - especially since it's animated - but I'll keep an eye on it!


I like the general direction of these additions, but I do feel like this kinda steps on the toes of the skill system. It sort of brings into question why a lot of benefits are given through the skill system and not through this system. I think there's definitely a place for both the skill tree and the event stuff, but I would like it if there was more of an explicit philosophy behind why effects are put in one vs the other.

To me it feels like 'QOL' type stuff, and small numerical benefits make sense for the event system, while skills could be more about big run-altering stuff. I like that the event system lets you get the all QOL stuff you want which I think is valuable.

That's an interesting topic! And exactly the sort of thing that makes it good to experiment with the system to learn more about applying it.

Here, I think the main distinction is "stuff I'd like everyone to have" goes into events, where other stuff goes into skills, though I'm not sure I'd want to stick to that too closely. I think it's a pretty common thing in RPGs that doing some stuff will get you permanent bonuses, of a similar nature to what you get from skills, I think?

(Re: QoL stuff, I think there's a tendency to paint label with a very, very broad brush regarding some of the skills, undervaluing the indirect combat value of those kinds of skills just because they don't make the obvious numbers go up.,,)
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #59 on: October 15, 2022, 09:42:31 AM »

Actually, I would hypothesize even with full slipstream information, I still wouldn't end up using them that much.  I should try playing a campaign run through with the entire slipstream network visible at all times, and see how much I take advantage of them in my traveling, maybe recording the number of light years spent traveling by stream vs normal hyperspace or gate travel.  I don't suppose there's a travel log mod which records your lightyears traveled and how?  If I had to guess in my current games (with imperfect knowledge), less than 10% of my light years traveled are via slipstream (in a useful direction), whereas gate travel is probably around 50% of my light years travelled late game (and can reach 100% gate travel if I've got a gate in my colonies and a gate in a remnant system and I'm farming cores for some reason).  As it is, I don't find myself using the neutrino detector in hyperspace, as simply fully zoomed out and unchained view catches a fair bit.

Honestly? If it's at 10% while not having good info on their placement and after 50% from gates, then that's not bad at all.

I really need to take notes on a run through some time to get a hard number on that as 10% is really a guess based on vague memories.  Like, did I use one roughly one in ten trips?  It's certainly more than one in hundred, but maybe it's only one in twenty really? Probably writing a personal odometer mod that just records light years traveled normally, in slipstreams, or distance traveled by gate (assuming the right API hooks exist?) is less effort than note taking and estimating. Hmm.

Although, I guess you are kind of doing that with your topography progress tracker in the next release anyways?  I don't suppose you would be willing to add a light years traveled option to the historian graphs?  Or maybe just an odometer readout to the Hyperspace Topography progress tracker itself (You've traveled X light years in hyperspace, Y of them at burn higher than 20).

I'm curious about zooming out and panning around, though; at 1650x1080 and max default zoom, it doesn't even come close to letting you see beyond the radar (which shows all slipstreams in range), let alone the range of the Neutrino Detector - which several times that? It's 10 light-years.

That was a misstatement by me without the game in front of me.  Sorry for the confusion.  Apparently, I was conflating information I get while traveling between the radar and the panning.  You're right, with my 2560x1440 resolution, the upper right of my screen does not quite reach the edge of radar range (close though), but that means it's far off from radar range up and down.  So that puts panning at something like almost 3 light years on diagonal (from center), ~2.4 light years left and right, ~1.3 light years up and down.  The radar is more useful in that regard, going out a full 3 light years in all directions.

To clarify the more useful part of the comment, the farther the slipstream is from my fleet and running parallel or away, the less likely it is to be useful.  If it is going towards my destination, it's going to eventually come into the 3 light year radar cone in front of my travel direction, and I'll pick it up the slipstream a portion of the way then, if it makes sense to do so.  For me, running neutrino detector in hyperspace is almost never worth it given the ratio of payoff to hassle.  And the game is designed such that you don't need slipstreams in the first place, so it's safe to ignore as well (also - please don't change that fact. :) ).

Admittedly, the single volatile cost per day is pretty low for a late game low tech fleet burning 160 fuel per day (250 vs 4000?), but it does mean hitting a location that can refill volatiles regularly, which I point out waystations don't stock (perhaps they should if they're intended as exploration extenders with size 3 colonies scattered about?), so keeping topped up on volatiles adds a bit of shopping overhead, along with supplies and fuel in the late game.  Or put another way, supplies and fuel are basically everywhere, volatiles are not.

I'll note, even if you do save a bit of fuel with the detour through a distant slipstream, you are often taking longer in terms of time (both real and in game).  Although I suppose another 50% factor of fuel reduction (25% effective fuel costs?) will help.

To make those statements a bit more concrete, I'll create an example.  With the current build, I just created a new new game, dev mode on, dev sensors on so I can see all slipstreams, with perfect knowledge.  In this situation it's still unclear if traveling 7-10 light years out of the way (the range of the neutrino detector) is actually useful.

I attach a png for this new game's map.  Let's assume I want to go to Alpha Tempest from Askonia, a 26 light year trip due east, over slightly half the length from the core to the edge of the sector, which should make using slipstreams more worthwhile (traveling 10 lightyears out of the way to catch a slipstream to get a destination only 10 light years away is never worth it).  Let's assume I know the slipstreams are mostly west to east travel at this time, so the fact there's the start of slipstream 7 light years south means there is at least the possibility the slip stream is heading roughly in the right direction.  But there's no guarantee there is a convenient crossing stream that happens to get to the exact destination.  But let's say I take the gamble and head south for the East traveling stream.

It turns out, with a dram at base burn 10 (20 sustained), travel by slipstream one way takes 15.25 days, 19 fuel and 3 supplies.  Flying directly on autopilot either there or back takes 13 days, 25 fuel and ~7 supplies.  Even in a perfect knowledge situation, and a slipstream with an endpoint on my destination, it is unclear in this case that the slipstream option is better.  Estimate 2 days in system to do the exploration scan, then head back.  Assuming you are chaining contracts, 2 days saved out of 30 on a 50,000 credit contract is roughly 3,333 credits since you can grab the next one and go, compared to the slipstream savings of 550 credits.  So for a Dram exploration start knowing the slipstream is there 7 light years away does me no good.  Neutrino detector usage in this case isn't worth it.

If I were instead heading for the blue giant in the bottom right corner, I'd eventually see the slipstream with my radar around the halfway point due to how I approach blocking slips streams, which in this would have me head south slightly to enter and cross, but I'd see the direct stream at that point, at which point I'll hop on.  In that case using neutrino detector to find the slipstream earlier saves 2 days (16 vs 18 days), 8 fuel (20 vs 28), and 7 supplies (2 vs 9).  So it is potentially worth it in optimal situations streams roughly half the length of the sector going directly to your destination.  Which doesn't actually happen all that often.

Now this isn't a full combat fleet that gets slowed significantly by deep hyperspace, and it's at the low end fuel usage, which is why I need more data from an actual play through with note taking.  But just because you can detect a slip stream out a farther distance doesn't actually make the slipstream useful, and the probability of it being useful is goes down with its distance as the cost to use it goes up in time and fuel.

As a side note, while doing this testing, I'm suddenly wishing for a on map waypoint option that just tells me the distance between two points instead of counting squares and doing a bit of a^2 + b^2 = c^2 in my head (or calculator on my phone).  Again, just to make planning easier.  Having the waypoint calculation which is show when you're flying around, but on the map, and between two arbitrary points (so telling you expected time and fuel usage) would be amazing for planning long routes. Or even doing multiple waypoints on the map even if they don't get saved for travel, but just giving a player an idea of how much fuel they'll spend, might reduce new players getting stranded, or an idea of how many logistics ships they need to buy.  The fuel range overlay is good, but is less handy for multiple waypoint runs.


Yeah, I hear you. Then again, as long as long stretches were "nothing happens" exist, the movement system will have to stand on its own on a regular basis. The worst emptiness-offender is not even hyperspace though, but big empty systems. Some interesting movement could be applied here too: Raising a solar sail (ability) near the sun to be blown into the system fringe (aka "make your own pulsar but without the hurt")? Using a planet's gravity well to slingshot yourself through the system? Maybe a jump points acts like a pinball bumper if you don't go trough?

Ah! But you don't *know* that big empty system is actually empty, I think that's pretty big.

On the other hand, a solar sail and a gravity slingshot both sound like fun things! Like, a lot of fun. Hmm. Both could be initiated by interacting with the star/planet, even (so: no ability slot), though that'd break the movement flow.

I'd think you want an ability slot, but potentially an alternative movement mode button, akin to dark or sustained burn, because you need to maintain inertia afterwards.  Gravity Slingshot or Interial Dampers Off or something.  You turn it on, and now your fleet burns normally plus picks up acceleration towards nearby masses, and maintains inertia much better.  So as it approaches the planet it accelerates faster and faster, and then off you go as you pass over.   If you make the acceleration proportional to the planet's mass, it could make gas giants natural objectives for fast travel - or even across the sun at the cost of some supplies due to the corona.  Could lead to some crazy chases if the AI understands how to use it.

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