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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Hyperspace Topography  (Read 14787 times)

Alex

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Hyperspace Topography
« on: October 12, 2022, 09:41:51 AM »

Blog post here.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2022, 09:43:25 AM by Alex »
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Grievous69

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2022, 09:54:59 AM »

Very Very cool. So if I got everything right, you get these bonuses and they're permanent? Except the last part when you just get an item to sell ofc. I'm just happy that travel will slowly get easier throughout the game. Not much else to comment on but that doesn't devalue the blog post itself.

Btw I'm surprised at the scope of this update, seems like it'll be a huge one.
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Wyvern

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2022, 09:55:46 AM »

Interesting, and it starts to help with my perennial issue with hyperspace travel: that it's become a nuisance minigame that you can't opt out of, but where most of the time doing 'well' just means you had less of a penalty from storms knocking you off-course, slipstreams crossing your path, etc. (Surfing storms is neat, I'll give that - but it's also ruinously expensive unless you've explicitly invested in solar shielding on every ship in your fleet. Which can be fun sometimes, but most of the time I want other hullmods for when I actually get where I'm going.)

Having 'scan hyperspace for bonus points' and 'go really fast for bonus points' should help some.

But the problem with slipstreams as currently implemented is that 95% of the time, if I'm in hyperspace, I have a specific goal in mind, and a time-limit because mission timers, bounty timers, etc. I can't really plan around shifting slipstreams because I'm going where I'm going regardless of where they are - so every once in a blue moon they help, and the rest of the time they're just in the way.

Now, if you had something like "mark up to five missions as priority missions and their timer doesn't count down while they're marked"? Then you could actually plan an expedition, do other stuff while waiting for slipstreams to line up, and actually take advantage of the system.

Edit: This also works when you still have access to Sebestyen's missions, since they don't time out. But you lose that when you gain gate access, and, sorry Sebestyen, but gate access is more valuable. Plus these days I mostly play games using Nex's 'skip story' option, so I don't get Sebestyen's missions in the first place.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2022, 10:22:50 AM by Wyvern »
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The killer

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2022, 10:06:20 AM »

Interesting, and it starts to help with my perennial issue with hyperspace travel: that it's become a nuisance minigame that you can't opt out of, but where most of the time doing 'well' just means you had less of a penalty from storms knocking you off-course, slipstreams crossing your path, etc. (Surfing storms is neat, I'll give that - but it's also ruinously expensive unless you've explicitly invested in solar shielding on every ship in your fleet. Which can be fun sometimes, but most of the time I want other hullmods for when I actually get where I'm going.)

Having 'scan hyperspace for bonus points' and 'go really fast for bonus points' should help some.

But the problem with slipstreams as currently implemented is that 95% of the time, if I'm in hyperspace, I have a specific goal in mind, and a time-limit because mission timers, bounty timers, etc. I can't really plan around shifting slipstreams because I'm going where I'm going regardless of where they are - so every once in a blue moon they help, and the rest of the time they're just in the way.

Now, if you had something like "mark up to five missions as priority missions and their timer doesn't count down while they're marked"? Then you could actually plan an expedition, do other stuff while waiting for slipstreams to line up, and actually take advantage of the system.

This pretty much covers all of my own thoughts on hyperspace in the current version of the game, slipstreams are just not that 'solid' enough in the terrain to plan around/with (And dear lord this won't help at all in modded play but thats on us people using/making mods to work around), Most colonies will have 10~ ly of detection but how often are missions going to send the player out towards their planets?
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Mordodrukow

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2022, 10:08:55 AM »

Slipstream detection is the most exciting part for me. It adds another factor to count with when choosing a planet to colonise. Very good!
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Probe1

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2022, 10:09:13 AM »

I love your blogs and updates.  Thank you for everything.
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Alex

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2022, 10:30:49 AM »

Very Very cool. So if I got everything right, you get these bonuses and they're permanent? Except the last part when you just get an item to sell ofc.

Yep, you got it!

Btw I'm surprised at the scope of this update, seems like it'll be a huge one.

(Ahh, that's really good to hear! I'm in that stage of "don't remember everything and wonder if there's enough stuff in this one" that, to be fair, I go through with every single update.)


But the problem with slipstreams as currently implemented is that 95% of the time, if I'm in hyperspace, I have a specific goal in mind, and a time-limit because mission timers, bounty timers, etc. I can't really plan around shifting slipstreams because I'm going where I'm going regardless of where they are - so every once in a blue moon they help, and the rest of the time they're just in the way.

That makes sense, yeah. You still can plan around them to *some* extent - especially with the earlier-on public bounties and the analyze/survey missions; less so with contact missions, for sure.

But, regardless: having a good idea of what the slipstream network looks like at any given moment should let you take advantage of it when the streams *do* align with your goals, which should be a fair portion of the time (just, you wouldn't normally know this). And you can still tweak what you do, a little - opportunistically explore a system, that sort of thing.


Most colonies will have 10~ ly of detection but how often are missions going to send the player out towards their planets?

That also makes sense. But, once you're familiar with the common slipstream patterns, even a small amount of detection gives you much more info then you actally immediately see. (And, it helps you become familiar with the patterns, too.)

Slipstream detection is the most exciting part for me. It adds another factor to count with when choosing a planet to colonise. Very good!

Cool!

I love your blogs and updates.  Thank you for everything.

Thank you! <3
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Olfand

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2022, 11:12:57 AM »

I totally agree with the idea of "you can have info on things you can't always have a control on" for the use of the sensor array and adding some cool effects to the gameplay and explorations.

The system looks promising as to rewarding the player for progressing through this event while makingit near impossible to broke the grinding / reward aspect. The bonuses looks really neat and the reward data can make an occasionally bonus in credits to help progressing while not having your full little developped empire comprised of full size 6 colonies ! =) (because when you can get about 500 000 credits each month nothing can stop you lol !) Not overpowered but usefull nonetheless !

As for the slipstream as themselves, i think that gameplay wise and lore wise (as we know it for now) they shouldn't be things we can manipulate at our will, more like a universe size natural forces you can use at your advantage in some degre but still dangerous and annoying when in your way (because humans aren't god do they ?)

But i wouldn't be surprised as if the hypershunts could be more numerous in the future and used to create temporarly guided slipstreams between systems like the actual gates are jump points between themselves.

Well i'm just letting my mind getting carried away ! But still that's a promising update that will come ! And not just talking about the hyperspace topography ! It looks like you've got way more ideas to test with your Event mechanic and i'm happy to see this game growing again and again !

Anyway fellow captains i'm on my way to another exploration !

Burn bright fellow starfarers !
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Cyan Leader

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2022, 11:25:05 AM »

Seems like an interesting idea to push them further but I'll be honest Alex, I think at the end of the day I'm still not going to be using them much. As others have pointed out, they will often not align with the departure point nor the destination of the quests, and I'm not going to choose a bounty over another just because I know which directional stream season is going on at the moment, as other factors such as the payout and the particulars of the mission are much more important. As for the lategame stuff, ever since slipstreams were added to the game I felt that they should have been visible at all times on the map in order for them to get some use. The later rewards of this event helps a bit to make them get close to that, but I feel that by the time the colony stuff starts to make a difference I'll already be over the exploration side of the game and will have transitioned to using gates. All in all, I'll reserve final judgment to when I actually play this update and I hope to be wrong about this.

In regards to using an "event" in such a manner, I have zero oppositions to the approach. I feel like it's a fun way to motivate the player to do all sorts of things and I'm looking forward to seeing this being applied in other parts of the game/reward systems. Small question though, can multiple events be occurring at the same time? Like multiple crises or something?
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Gothars

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2022, 11:53:57 AM »

Neat!

Quote
. when you find something neat and scan it, the game will acknowledge that 

That's a huge one for me! Exploration is (besides combat) my favorit part of the game, so it's great that it get's more structure.
And you didn't mention the most obvious reason why unlocking these options via the event system is a good idea: growth is fun!


Regarding slipstrean usefulness: it would be neat if you could sort of catapult yourself out of a stream after building up momentum, and then continue sliding in the chosen direction for a good long while at high speed/fuel efficiency and being protected from storms. Maybe just by activating emergency burn at the right time in the stream? In practice that would much increase the area that you can conveniently reach with a slipstream.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2022, 11:58:14 AM by Gothars »
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GnomeVader

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2022, 12:06:18 PM »

Sorry for my newbie question and confusion. Is this new content that is going to be added in the next release?
Thank you
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SafariJohn

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2022, 12:12:54 PM »

Sorry for my newbie question and confusion. Is this new content that is going to be added in the next release?
Thank you

Yes
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Alex

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2022, 12:23:02 PM »

Spoiler
I totally agree with the idea of "you can have info on things you can't always have a control on" for the use of the sensor array and adding some cool effects to the gameplay and explorations.

The system looks promising as to rewarding the player for progressing through this event while makingit near impossible to broke the grinding / reward aspect. The bonuses looks really neat and the reward data can make an occasionally bonus in credits to help progressing while not having your full little developped empire comprised of full size 6 colonies ! =) (because when you can get about 500 000 credits each month nothing can stop you lol !) Not overpowered but usefull nonetheless !

As for the slipstream as themselves, i think that gameplay wise and lore wise (as we know it for now) they shouldn't be things we can manipulate at our will, more like a universe size natural forces you can use at your advantage in some degre but still dangerous and annoying when in your way (because humans aren't god do they ?)

But i wouldn't be surprised as if the hypershunts could be more numerous in the future and used to create temporarly guided slipstreams between systems like the actual gates are jump points between themselves.

Well i'm just letting my mind getting carried away ! But still that's a promising update that will come ! And not just talking about the hyperspace topography ! It looks like you've got way more ideas to test with your Event mechanic and i'm happy to see this game growing again and again !

Anyway fellow captains i'm on my way to another exploration !

Burn bright fellow starfarers !
[close]

*thumbs up* :D


Seems like an interesting idea to push them further but I'll be honest Alex, I think at the end of the day I'm still not going to be using them much. As others have pointed out, they will often not align with the departure point nor the destination of the quests, and I'm not going to choose a bounty over another just because I know which directional stream season is going on at the moment, as other factors such as the payout and the particulars of the mission are much more important. As for the lategame stuff, ever since slipstreams were added to the game I felt that they should have been visible at all times on the map in order for them to get some use. The later rewards of this event helps a bit to make them get close to that, but I feel that by the time the colony stuff starts to make a difference I'll already be over the exploration side of the game and will have transitioned to using gates. All in all, I'll reserve final judgment to when I actually play this update and I hope to be wrong about this.

Hmm. One thing is that - intentionally - the "neutrino burst" gives you info about nearby slipstreams as well as getting you points, so you get access to this info prior to colonies, just on a less consistent basis. But you can do a "let's see if there are any headed where I need to go" pretty much whenever. And you can buy that info from scavengers. And, if you end up with more widely-spaced colonies, seeing quick ways to get between them would be helpful past the exploration stage. (I mean, there's always gates, too, but having options is still useful.)

The other thing, though, is from personal playtesting experience, I've found slipstreams to be useful for exploration as they currently are, prior to these pretty massive boosts. I suspect having the benefit of knowing exactly how they work under the hood helps a lot, and part of the goal of these changes is to make that something the player can much more easily pick up on.


In regards to using an "event" in such a manner, I have zero oppositions to the approach. I feel like it's a fun way to motivate the player to do all sorts of things and I'm looking forward to seeing this being applied in other parts of the game/reward systems. Small question though, can multiple events be occurring at the same time? Like multiple crises or something?

Cool! And, yeah, there's no restriction on concurrent events.


Quote
. when you find something neat and scan it, the game will acknowledge that 

That's a huge one for me! Exploration is (besides combat) my favorit part of the game, so it's great that it get's more structure.
And you didn't mention the most obvious reason why unlocking these options via the event system is a good idea: growth is fun!

Oh hmm, that's a point, yeah! In the same vein that building a few sensor arrays near your colonies would be fun in the "I'm building something meaningful" way.

Regarding slipstrean usefulness: it would be neat if you could sort of catapult yourself out of a stream after building up momentum, and then continue sliding in the chosen direction for a good long while at high speed/fuel efficiency and being protected from storms. Maybe just by activating emergency burn at the right time in the stream? In practice that would much increase the area that you can conveniently reach with a slipstream.

I'd have to think about that, that's an interesting idea. Getting the physics to work right/in a satisfying way could be a bit involved.

(Fun fact: I've got this idea for making short slipstreams with a huge speed (like, 500-1000 burn), sort of like "gates" that boost you. This actually works if you do it in-game; might add this in at some later point. I remember even trying to make a chain of relay gates this way, spacing them so that by the time you slow down, the next gate picks you up - and it totally works!)
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smithney

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2022, 01:02:23 PM »

As always, thank you for the insight, Alex ^^

I'd like to highlight two things notable to me:

First, I enjoy the hints of the gameplay theme Volatiles represent. I was hoping there will be another reason to carry around Volatiles than just for the gimmicky* Neutrino Detector, but seeing as Neutrino Burst is an option anchored to a sensor array it won't necessarily be the case (as you can just pick up stashed Volatiles at your nearest colony). Regardless, Volatiles being the substrate for AMF production as well as a resource for exploration abilities hints at an intriguing ludonarrative theme, if you catch my drift...

Second, happy to finally see some reason to check on fellow scavengers :P Still some way to go before developing a reputation for being nosy around strangers in hyperspace becomes a thing, but a welcome step forward regardless.

Aside from that, definitely didn't expect to see the event tracker be utilized like this. But hey, so long as Starsector doesn't turn into a vertical barcode I'm not complaining about abusing them... For science!
You can just remove some later if they start to ruin immersion, right? :^

* So far! I'm looking forward to see if the Detector usage in hyperspace becomes impactful enough to change my mind.
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Ruddygreat

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2022, 02:10:21 PM »

ooohhhhhh, those new icons are lovely!
also hmmm, it wasn't too clear in the post - does hyperfield optimisation increase the normal speed limit to 23, or does it bump your current max burn up by 3? (for a +4/+8 speed increase w/ navigation)
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