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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Hyperspace Topography  (Read 14818 times)

smithney

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #30 on: October 13, 2022, 06:26:06 AM »

With all this extra efficiency from coming Hyperspace Topography, Auxiliary Fuel Tanks hullmod and the idea of needing colonies to support exploration, it's too easy to have enough fuel capacity even without tankers to basically have near unlimited range. I propose the base fuel use should be raised somewhat to encouraging planning and to make tankers useful again.
Honestly I think having to carry around purely logistical ships feels like a nuisance, but I understand their necessity to balance out ship size against fleet size. I don't feel the need to make tankers more useful, consider that they are the only practical option for hauling commercial amounts of AM fuel, they are also nice for raiding for when a bombardment comes in handy. Anyway how are you so sure fuel management will become near non-factor with the announced changes? If you're coming from the PoV of a Containment Procedures user, I guess near unlimited range would be the intended effect.

(As a total aside, I will say it one more time: this progress bar system is going places, so I hope you're prepared to make another dozen iterations. :D People are going to clamor for it to be used for Combat ("Combat XP!" "Split off Combat Skills from the main skill system!" "The more you fight the more Combat Skills you get!" etc), for Trade, for dealing with Factions, for campaign events, endgame scenarios...the list goes on and on. I think it has the potential to do some really cool things in the game, assuming of course, you want to spend the time on it!)
One caveat I had when Alex announced the usage of event trackers in Hostile Activity was that the player might get overwhelmed by too many of them. A fact I didn't emphasize enough last time is that the computer is obviously doing the tracking here, making them less of a burden on the player and more of a feedback mechanism. But I can imagine an overanalytical player getting committed to making numbers go up instead of taking the tracker as just an indicator of progress, as Alex noted in this blog post. Seeing how players reacted to the bonus xp mechanic I'm skeptical about players not finding a way to turn events into chores, but we'll see. An obvious solution would then be to make events less directly influenceable by the player. Alternatively, the tracker could be hidden from the player, but that's obviously hard to implement if the intention is to entice the player with beneficial goalposts.
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BCS

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #31 on: October 13, 2022, 07:24:10 AM »

With all this extra efficiency from coming Hyperspace Topography, Auxiliary Fuel Tanks hullmod and the idea of needing colonies to support exploration, it's too easy to have enough fuel capacity even without tankers to basically have near unlimited range. I propose the base fuel use should be raised somewhat to encouraging planning and to make tankers useful again.

Uh... no? You get 50% less fuel use but only while inside a Slipstream. How often do you travel using Slipstreams? 1% of the time? Knowing where Slipstreams are won't magically change their direction so it won't really change how often you use them.

And saying that Auxiliary Fuel Tanks makes tankers obsolete is like saying that Expanded Cargo Holds makes haulers obsolete. No one puts ECH on their combat ships and no one will put AFT on their combat ships either. To begin with these hullmods are only really worth it if their 30% bonus beats their base bonus, i.e. only if you put them on haulers/tankers.
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gG_pilot

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #32 on: October 13, 2022, 08:29:31 AM »

Slipstream and  hyperspace gameplay need polishing,  tank you for adressing that.

There  are two big  pains  which I didnt find solution in your blog.
1. Current slipstream are 90% NOT usefull    becouse they lead somewhere else. Is it possible to choose  flow? I mean, can  the player use it as a highway ? (good) (or it is still one_way_highway ?) (bad)
2. Current slipstream can grab player fleet  and drag it soomwhere faraway and die. It  leads to behaviour, oh  here is  a  slipstream I need to cross, then I must quicksave!

It would be  better to make it other way around, let player  make effort to stay inside stream. You know  these coin-machines with a rocket you  controll and shoot  evertyhing  ? I think it would  be nice change of  peace when  player enter  the  slipstream and whoooooaaaaa, he has to control the ship  to  stay IN.  MAKE EFFORT CONTROL THE SHIP TO GET BONUS.

 Now it is a  wierd position, when slip stream grab a player and FORCE a  BONUS on him. Then player have to make effort to NOT receive bonus to leave stream. Wierd. It would feel much better that be in a slip is reward  player get for his  effort. As soon  as player lose concentration  or stop  controlling ship, it is kicked out of stream.

Perhaps there could  be some price  for entering  slip, like a dose  of fuel, so player gets motivation to keep in the  stream as long  as possible, and not only slide in  and out without consequences. Also make slip more narrow and zig-zag so it  is a challenge to  stay    in.
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Tip > > Topographic data item should  be part of  faction  diplomatic.  e.i.  you  could give it to other  faction to get favor points.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2022, 08:53:13 AM by gG_pilot »
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FooF

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #33 on: October 13, 2022, 08:29:49 AM »

One skill point in Industry gives your whole fleet 50% cargo/fuel capacity early on. It greatly reduces the need for more than one transport or fuel hauler. Logistic ships, as a whole, could be more interesting but they’re not broke. But that’s another topic entirely.
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Dadada

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #34 on: October 13, 2022, 09:26:00 AM »

2. Current slipstream can grab player fleet  and drag it soomwhere faraway and die. It  leads to behaviour, oh  here is  a  slipstream I need to cross, then I must quicksave!
Emergency burn... I never had to save because of a slipstream. I am careful with my supplies and fuel and return sooner rather than later so that I do not lose my fleet and thus crossing 2 slipstreams with emergency burn is not a big deal for me.
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Samaj

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #35 on: October 13, 2022, 09:35:09 AM »

I have to say, you always blow me away with the ideas and upcoming features. When I get notification that a new blog post just dropped I have to read it as soon as I can, because I know it's going to be great. Event system sounds amazing and will really motivate me to explore even more!
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Megas

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #36 on: October 13, 2022, 09:42:43 AM »

No to increased fuel use.  Ships are plenty thirsty without Containment Procedures.

As for slipstreams.  In my first 0.95.1a game, streams frequently spawned near my colony system and were a convenient speed boost.  In my second game, any streams that spawned near my system was an intersecting mess that often converged to a single spot, and streams frequently got in the way, where I cross them far more than riding them.

As for colony placement, as long as a system needs multiple bases to repel invasions without babysitting from the player, and we have gates for travel, I do not see new features encouraging spreading colonies wide.

I agree with BCS about various features.  Hypershunt is only good for Omega weapons loot; getting the stuff for +1 industry is not worth the aggravation from cells (and inspections if I do not feel like purging H from the sector permanently).  Sleeper ships are useless after the colony is at max size.

Lately, the main considerations where I build colonies are...
* Does the system have a gate?
* Does the system have two or more planets so that babysitting may be avoided if targeted for a raid?
* Does the system have enough resources to meet demand?  Ideally without IP in case my commander does not get it (and Hull Restoration).
* Is the system close enough to core for higher accessibility and less fuel use?
* Is the location magic enough that I always avoid pirate activity?  In my first 0.95.1a game, my colony systems never got pirate activity - it was great.

As for logistics hullmods, I have used them occasionally on combat ships early when I desperately needed more capacity in a pinch.  Come to think of it, in my last game, I avoided combat at all costs until I got Hull Restoration at level 6, then, I had extra cargo on most ships to haul more commodities to the well-known money-maker systems when trading is more profitable than combat early, but my ships (as I slowly find more) could fight the occasional pirates that got in the way.
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Wyvern

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #37 on: October 13, 2022, 10:29:15 AM »

Speaking more in general, top down 2d games always struggle to have interesting movement systems. I can think of very few where movement is actually a main appeal, it mostly serves to connect other game elements to each other. That is of course in sharp contrast to side-scrolling 2d games, where movement is often the core mechanic. Why is that, I wonder?
The really interesting thing here is that Starsector does have interesting movement mechanics... in the context of maneuvering within a single star system, if you disable sustained burn.

(Why do I specify 'if you disable sustained burn'? Because it makes hostile fleets move too fast; an enemy fleet with sustained burn running can close from offscreen to oops-you're-detected in very short order - and if you're trying to be sneaky, this is almost always a no-win situation: there's no option you can take to remain sneaky; you lose because RNG decided you lose. I think that, overall, the game would benefit from removing sustained burn, and replacing it with the ability to toggle up to 4x increased timeflow rather than 2x. ...For that matter, does anybody ever toggle the 2x timeflow option off? I know I don't.)

This breaks down in hyperspace, though, because nobody enforces transponder-on (a good thing, as being required to be transponder-on in hyperspace would be terrible if you were hostile with any of the major factions), and because there's no rewards for good play. In a star system, that 'good play' reward might be something like 'you snuck into Chicomoztoc with your transponder off, and can now buy the rare XIV-variant onslaught on the black market without getting every patrol in-system up your grill' - but there's no hyperspace equivalent.

...You know what hyperspace needs? Buried treasure. Places like the Alpha Site that you can find by, I dunno, following sensor ghosts or something? Nothing with quite the Alpha Site's level of rewards, of course, but a lost and lonely planet with some salvageable ruins, perhaps? (Though, hm. Would need something to mark such planets as non-colonizeable.)
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Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

Alex

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #38 on: October 13, 2022, 11:06:40 AM »

First, I enjoy the hints of the gameplay theme Volatiles represent. I was hoping there will be another reason to carry around Volatiles than just for the gimmicky* Neutrino Detector, but seeing as Neutrino Burst is an option anchored to a sensor array it won't necessarily be the case (as you can just pick up stashed Volatiles at your nearest colony). Regardless, Volatiles being the substrate for AMF production as well as a resource for exploration abilities hints at an intriguing ludonarrative theme, if you catch my drift...

Since you can build or find an array in just about any system, I think it'd make sense to carry some around!

Second, happy to finally see some reason to check on fellow scavengers :P Still some way to go before developing a reputation for being nosy around strangers in hyperspace becomes a thing, but a welcome step forward regardless.

Yeah, for sure; in general I'd like to see a few more reasons to interact with other fleets, but we'll see.

Aside from that, definitely didn't expect to see the event tracker be utilized like this. But hey, so long as Starsector doesn't turn into a vertical barcode I'm not complaining about abusing them... For science!
You can just remove some later if they start to ruin immersion, right? :^

Indeed :)

ooohhhhhh, those new icons are lovely!

(Aren't they?!)

also hmmm, it wasn't too clear in the post - does hyperfield optimisation increase the normal speed limit to 23, or does it bump your current max burn up by 3? (for a +4/+8 speed increase w/ navigation)

The normal limit is still 20.


I can tell I'm going to fall in love with these events - it's just such a nice, clean gameplay interface for 'a long-term thing is happening, you'll want to keep an eye on that'. Lots of gameplay potential, lots of modding potential, and a nice antidote to predictable optimization routines, the bane of a sense of adventure.

Glad you're liking it! Looking at it now, it seems like such a simple thing, but it really does feel like it fits so many things well.


these dev blog posts are always a treat. generally speaking, they're not the kind of thing I'd usually be interested in when it comes to other games, but it's like your passion really comes through in these and it makes for a fun read every time

Thank you so much! It always makes me happy when someone says they enjoy the posts.

as far as these future changes go, I'm very excited for them. the janus device was already quite a helpful solution for late-game hyperspace repetitiveness issues, but coupled with these plans, and all the other interesting little things like hyperspace ghosts, we're probably getting very close to the point where hyperspace travel will no longer be seen as a chore at all. it's a great idea all around, I'm looking forward to seeing it in action

Here's hoping! There are are few other things I'd like to do there (or at least look at), but... :-X


What about tying the event system into other skills or giving other skills their events? Crew Training and Cybernetic Augmentation come to mind.

Haha, I thought someone might bring that up :) I don't think that'd be a good idea, though. That sort of creates the expectation that *every* skill should have one, and, not somewhere I'd want to go.

I could see other non-skills-but-kinda-skills working this way, though. I mean, that's what Hyperspace Topography is, more or less - like an alternative take on a specialized Navigation.

Also there's an idea about some sort of codebreaking event.

Hmm, what do you mean?


I rather like the idea of the old-fashioned sailor, waiting on the wind and tides, but in this case, waiting is just holding the shift key for ten to fifteen minutes straight.  Not only is that expensive in supplies, it's also incredibly boring.  It's what I'll have to do if I depend on slipstreams.

So what can be done to ameliorate this?  I think some method of waiting with reduced supply cost would be nice.

Hmm. I don't think anything needs to done here, like, *at all*? Waiting for slipstreams to change - unless it's already really close in the season - already seems like a bad idea for several reasons. You don't even know for sure what they're going to turn into; it could be a "random" outcome that doesn't even flow the way you want. The last thing I'd want to do is add some kind of mechanic that encourages it.

Slipstreams aren't meant to be - and emphatically aren't - something you can "depend" on! Just because you can plan around them and take advantage of the opportunities doesn't mean they're always the best way to move around.

The mini super slipstreams sound like a fun idea, and perhaps that could be expanded with late game tech to be able to create them with an appropriately significant cost, and maybe a limited maximum amount. Being able to create them at the far reaches by your colonies sounds like a great way to improve mobility using the mini slipstream booster idea, and another way to add investment in your colonies as well as another goal to work towards. It'd also play into your idea of spreading colonies around if you can make it easier to travel between long distance colonies with these booster slipstreams.

That could be fun, yeah!


Since Hyperspace lanes move items between long distances and, would it be possible for them to slowly trickle in new things from "outside" of the playable area (explanation wise) so you'd still be able to find domain relics in places you might have previously explored, or perhaps in a certain general area that was very close to a hyperspace lane. This could also be something that could be used to boost the progress for the bar as you're investigating anomalous activities along the routes.

That way you'd still have that exploration open to you, and hey maybe you might find something else in the area as well. [REDACTED], pirates that are out of fuel (hence got drawn into a solar system with the domain relics as well as they dropped out of the hyperspace lane), luddics etc. Could even introduce some random but very cool unique event/boss this way (or story stuff due to plot reasons as not to spoil things).

That is one big downside. Once you've been to all of the systems you're sort of done. Afterwards you can get things only from missions that spawn domain objects.

I don't think this would need to be tied to slipstreams, other than perhaps conceptually. The general problem here is that if this sort of thing happens, you wouldn't know *where* it happened, so if it's just "some fringe systems get re-rolled", that by itself wouldn't be much good; going on a tour of the fringes to find what's new there would mostly consist of disappointment. Like, if you've already explored something, but that no longer means there's nothing there, I don't think that's actually good. Some more specific events like "you get some info from a scavenger that X happened in a fringe system" might work, though. But, I don't think this really relates to these mechanics, it's a completely different (if interesting) discussion.


Hype! I think this will go a long way toward making exploration and travel more interesting. Having more visibility over slipstreams will be great, and it seems like the topography discovery stuff will be very curiosity inducing! Do you plan to eventually make those award xp the way other discovery types do? (maybe they do and it just doesn't show up in the screenshot)

I hadn't really thought about it, hmm. The main problem with exploration XP - especially for this - is that exploration is mostly linear, while XP required to level up is extremely not. So that just makes finding meaningful XP values for exploration things difficult.

*cough* hyperdrive *cough*

(Oh yeah!)


A very unexpected, but very welcome/cool blog post! I'm glad you're trying the progress system on a low-risk mechanic that still has good QoL improvements without (hopefully) cheese tactics. This system feels very natural and you don't have to go out of your way to really earn it, though I do like that you can be intentional about it and earn it faster if you want.

Here's hoping that's exactly how it pans out :)

There are some interesting bread crumbs in all of this, namely, incentivizing colonies in multiple systems. While I don't think having a wider knowledge of slipstream patterns will be a decisive factor for whether or not I colonize a different system, this is a step in the right direction. I like the idea of claiming multiple sensor arrays having an effect on all colonies within a radius. Other similar mechanics could encourage spreading out more. Going "tall" (using a 4x term) of stacking all your colonies in one system for defense is a viable strategy but going "wide" should also have its perks.

Yeah, it's definitely intended as a "step" and not a decisive factor on its own. I've got a bunch of other ideas for things to try that would generally pull in the same direction! How much of that turns out well/makes it into the game/etc is as always TBD, though.

Regarding slipstreams themselves: I like them when they work for me but I really dislike them when they don't. When the slipstreams are going in the opposite direction, there sometimes isn't any other recourse except to cross them and its frustrating when you're pulled off track so much. I wouldn't mind another hyperspace skill unlock that would allow "fording" of a slipstream. Sort of like a warp bubble that prevents slipstream effects for like 3 seconds with a cooldown of 10 seconds. Maybe it has a cost (Volatiles?) but E-burning through slipstreams can be very costly in supplies if you don't have the Industry skill. Alternatively, if you enter a slipstream at a near-perpendicular angle, the slipstream current doesn't kick in immediately (1 second?) The delay would allow you to cross narrow/fast slipstreams almost entirely without getting pulled in the wrong direction for 10 LY. Perhaps this feature is mutually exclusive with Sustained Burn. 
The slipstreams are cool but when it comes to usability it is quite lacklustre, in fact sometimes more of an annoyance particularly when your destination is being barred off due to a slipstream forcing you to emergency burn through it or just try going through it, with these small features we can have a bit more control over our exploration. Now the neutrino detector is more of an early game strategy and slipstreams can be exploited used to our advantage.

Hmm. I think fundamentally, I'm completely fine with slipstreams being an obstacle at times. I'd just like to make sure they're also very, very useful at other times!

(As a total aside, I will say it one more time: this progress bar system is going places, so I hope you're prepared to make another dozen iterations. :D People are going to clamor for it to be used for Combat ("Combat XP!" "Split off Combat Skills from the main skill system!" "The more you fight the more Combat Skills you get!" etc), for Trade, for dealing with Factions, for campaign events, endgame scenarios...the list goes on and on. I think it has the potential to do some really cool things in the game, assuming of course, you want to spend the time on it!)

(Oh man, I can see it now. An "Ion Weapons" skill that has the player trying to find the most harmless pirate to pound on with Ion Cannons only to level it up, then retreating to let them repair before repeating this ad nauseum. Yes! That's the ticket.)

No, but seriously, it'll be interesting to explore where this is a good fit! I do want to be careful with it, because it seems really easy to use for pretty much everything.


It's cool to see these concepts come to life. You guys are legends and are pumping these ideas out like crazy. Can't wait to see what else you have in store.

:D

After reading this, the first thing that came to my mind is the potential new Crew/Marines/Pilots experience system separate from the Trading/Inventory system, which from my understanding being coupled to it was the main drawback of the earlier EXP system.

... oh! Oh. That's very interesting. The main problem with crew XP was just the *enormous* hassle of keeping track of multiple crew types, anywhere crew is used. So yeah, this could potentially abstract away from that, but then it's basically just "an additional bonus/parallel XP bar" which... it could be interesting, depending on what the contributing factors are and what the incentives are and so on. Larger topic and I haven't really thought it through, but: neat idea, thank you for bringing it up!


I'll be honest: none of the "think where you place your colonies" mechanics ever managed to make me actually consider where I place my colonies - extra Industry is superfluous, faster population growth with Cryosleepers is a very minor QoL which becomes obsolete once your colony reaches max size anyway, and I can't see myself putting down colonies just to know where the Slipstreams are either.

But hey, I'll gladly take +3 burn speed in Hyperspace and some extra money from Topographic Data, thankyouverymuch

Haha! We'll see, we'll see :)


Someone mentioned reduced supply use when waiting around and i think that's a nice idea. I mean it makes sense right?  Ships would probably require less maintenance if you are only running the barest minimum or something. Kinda like go dark... but darker?

That might make some sense in-fiction, but I really don't to incentivise waiting around.


With all this extra efficiency from coming Hyperspace Topography, Auxiliary Fuel Tanks hullmod and the idea of needing colonies to support exploration, it's too easy to have enough fuel capacity even without tankers to basically have near unlimited range. I propose the base fuel use should be raised somewhat to encouraging planning and to make tankers useful again.

Hmm, I'll keep an eye on how that feels when I get to doing some serious playtesting. My initial feeling is that slipstreams aren't reliable enough and that you'd still want some tankers for a safety margin, though.


Speaking more in general, top down 2d games always struggle to have interesting movement systems. I can think of very few where movement is actually a main appeal, it mostly serves to connect other game elements to each other. That is of course in sharp contrast to side-scrolling 2d games, where movement is often the core mechanic. Why is that, I wonder?

Gravity, momentum? Top downs often have both. What comes to mind as typically for side scrollers is challenging interaction with barriers, specifically their influence on player momentum. Using walls, ramps and enemies skillfully to accelerate instead of being slowed down by them is much of the fun.

I recently tried the mobile game DATA WING, which is one of these rare worthwhile movement based top downs. You race around a course, and here it kind of works because closing in with the course barriers just so gives you a speed boost.
Spoiler
[close]

That all means to say: Yeah - it would be fantastic to have more controllable momentum changing environmental interaction during travel, it actually seems the key to a fun movement system. Like the gate slipstreams you describe. I also think hyperspace storms offer potential, if you could just predict/influence the direction they throw you in and maybe chain them together somehow.

It's an interesting topic! Slipstream movement itself is kind of going in that direction, to have some movement that's fun just on its own. And yeah, as you say, momentum and playing with it etc... it's like the appeal of surf maps in counterstrike, just skillfully chaining movement together without breaks.

A large part of the fun, though, is also what you're actually doing. Sneaking around in a star system full of Redacted and picking it clean without getting in trouble is already fun, regardless of any second-to-second fun from just the movement system itself. Fundamentally, I think you need gameplay with risk and reward and so on - the movement system taken in isolation being fun is great, but I think that's kind of parallel enhancer to the other stuff needed to make it fun, not a requirement or a solution for it being fun/not fun, if you know what I mean? It's part of why slipstreams cut down on fuel use so much; "using fuel" is the fundamental cost of going through hyperspace and "doing it well" seems like it should involve reducing the fuel cost.

You can influence the direction the storms throw you, by the way! It's always "away from the center of the cell that had the storm strike". It's just really hard to do reliably, unless you're e-burning.

Hmm. Some stuff to think about, for sure :)


I have to say, you always blow me away with the ideas and upcoming features. When I get notification that a new blog post just dropped I have to read it as soon as I can, because I know it's going to be great. Event system sounds amazing and will really motivate me to explore even more!

Haha, thank you! You're too kind :)


As for colony placement, as long as a system needs multiple bases to repel invasions without babysitting from the player, and we have gates for travel, I do not see new features encouraging spreading colonies wide.

(Yes, the main incentive for stack all of the colonies in one place needs to be adjusted as well. And in part, hostile activity does this by adjusting how pirate raids work; all steps in the same general direction, but not the complete set of steps, just yet.)


(Why do I specify 'if you disable sustained burn'? Because it makes hostile fleets move too fast; an enemy fleet with sustained burn running can close from offscreen to oops-you're-detected in very short order - and if you're trying to be sneaky, this is almost always a no-win situation: there's no option you can take to remain sneaky; you lose because RNG decided you lose. I think that, overall, the game would benefit from removing sustained burn, and replacing it with the ability to toggle up to 4x increased timeflow rather than 2x. ...For that matter, does anybody ever toggle the 2x timeflow option off? I know I don't.)

(Wouldn't you be in *exactly the same situation*, then? S-burn off, 4x time = basically the same real-world timings. You might say you'd be running at 2x time, but you know that you wouldn't actually be! :D)

This breaks down in hyperspace, though, because nobody enforces transponder-on (a good thing, as being required to be transponder-on in hyperspace would be terrible if you were hostile with any of the major factions), and because there's no rewards for good play. In a star system, that 'good play' reward might be something like 'you snuck into Chicomoztoc with your transponder off, and can now buy the rare XIV-variant onslaught on the black market without getting every patrol in-system up your grill' - but there's no hyperspace equivalent.

Yeah - this is exactly what I was getting at with slipstreams and fuel use, since that's the main possible reward.

...You know what hyperspace needs? Buried treasure. Places like the Alpha Site that you can find by, I dunno, following sensor ghosts or something? Nothing with quite the Alpha Site's level of rewards, of course, but a lost and lonely planet with some salvageable ruins, perhaps? (Though, hm. Would need something to mark such planets as non-colonizeable.)

Funny, was thinking along very similar lines a little while ago (lone planet etc), though not in this specific context... hmm. It's tough to encourage exploration in hyperspace when there's a fuel cost hanging over your head as an overriding factor. Very much bears more thinking about, though; it's definitely about risk and reward.
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Jon

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #39 on: October 13, 2022, 11:10:42 AM »

 This looks great! My playstyle generally involves maxing out the industry tree alongside navigation and sensors, and exploring the sector so i can find the "dream" system for a colony whilst making enough money to keep my fleet afloat.
 While i think the desire to find that perfect terran world in a system with a Domain-era relay is still going to be there, i will give a few "dud" systems a chance if they are in a great spot to help map out the rest of the sector.
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Wyvern

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #40 on: October 13, 2022, 11:44:52 AM »

(Why do I specify 'if you disable sustained burn'? Because it makes hostile fleets move too fast; an enemy fleet with sustained burn running can close from offscreen to oops-you're-detected in very short order - and if you're trying to be sneaky, this is almost always a no-win situation: there's no option you can take to remain sneaky; you lose because RNG decided you lose. I think that, overall, the game would benefit from removing sustained burn, and replacing it with the ability to toggle up to 4x increased timeflow rather than 2x. ...For that matter, does anybody ever toggle the 2x timeflow option off? I know I don't.)

(Wouldn't you be in *exactly the same situation*, then? S-burn off, 4x time = basically the same real-world timings. You might say you'd be running at 2x time, but you know that you wouldn't actually be! :D)
How much time you have to react is the same, but what reactions you have available is very much not. Without sustained burn in the equation, you'd be looking at them coming in at a leisurely burn 9 - let's assume a fast patrol here - which you can attempt to dodge with your running-dark fleet at burn 7. (Why, yes, I do consider the Sensors skill to be a vastly better pick than Navigation.)

Compare that to trying to dodge when they're coming in at burn 18 to your 7, and it's not even a contest.

(Interdiction Pulse never helps. At least for me, by the time I realize I 'should' use it, it's too late and the enemy will catch up before it finishes its charge-up. Plus then you're no longer stealthed, and in a fail-state for sneaking. For that matter, if I come in with Sustained Burn, and some enemy fleet tries to use Interdiction Pulse... it also doesn't go off before I get to them, so I don't think that's a me-problem, exactly.)
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Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

Alex

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #41 on: October 13, 2022, 11:53:29 AM »

How much time you have to react is the same, but what reactions you have available is very much not. Without sustained burn in the equation, you'd be looking at them coming in at a leisurely burn 9 - let's assume a fast patrol here - which you can attempt to dodge with your running-dark fleet at burn 7. (Why, yes, I do consider the Sensors skill to be a vastly better pick than Navigation.)

Compare that to trying to dodge when they're coming in at burn 18 to your 7, and it's not even a contest.

Ah, that's a good point. This is why SB gives a 100% increase to how far away the fleet is detectable, though in practice - with the transponder being on - it's not going to be double. Perhaps changing SB to add a flat increase - say, +1000 or so - or act as a 2x multiplier instead of +100% - might make sense? Since the point there is to help keep the time-to-react at least similar-ish.
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smithney

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #42 on: October 13, 2022, 12:45:45 PM »

First, I enjoy the hints of the gameplay theme Volatiles represent. I was hoping there will be another reason to carry around Volatiles than just for the gimmicky* Neutrino Detector, but seeing as Neutrino Burst is an option anchored to a sensor array it won't necessarily be the case (as you can just pick up stashed Volatiles at your nearest colony). Regardless, Volatiles being the substrate for AMF production as well as a resource for exploration abilities hints at an intriguing ludonarrative theme, if you catch my drift...

Since you can build or find an array in just about any system, I think it'd make sense to carry some around!
Oh right, thanks for answering and clearing this up! Didn't think of it like this. So yeah, finally a motivation to start playing with the Detector :D It's also a neat teaser for the design space concerning overworld objectives that I'm sure you'll continue exploring. Wondering if popping-up objectives for their abilities ever becomes a thing...
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Nimiety

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #43 on: October 13, 2022, 02:50:26 PM »

Every time I use a slipstream I end up getting ganked by pirates or luddics, so I don't bother any more and I probably won't bother even with this new stuff. Its easy enoughto just cart around enough fuel to get everywhere and credits are meaningless outside the mega early game. Useful for new players? Maybe, or it gets them stuck in deep space since they can't rely on the half fuel indicator.
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woodsmoke

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Re: Hyperspace Topography
« Reply #44 on: October 13, 2022, 08:10:36 PM »

Why do I specify 'if you disable sustained burn'? Because it makes hostile fleets move too fast; an enemy fleet with sustained burn running can close from offscreen to oops-you're-detected in very short order - and if you're trying to be sneaky, this is almost always a no-win situation: there's no option you can take to remain sneaky; you lose because RNG decided you lose. I think that, overall, the game would benefit from removing sustained burn, and replacing it with the ability to toggle up to 4x increased timeflow rather than 2x. ...For that matter, does anybody ever toggle the 2x timeflow option off? I know I don't.

I can't speak to sneaky espionage problems caused by enemy fleets running SB but, for my part, the only time I ever toggle double time flow on is when I hit Shift+M4 to activate my transverse jump. By contrast, I use SB all the time.

I'd have no problem with Alex adding an option to change how much the shift key increases time flow but, if my only options were "crawl along at regular speed" or "the entire world zooms about like a crack-addled space monkey," I'd consider that a pretty significant step back from how things stand now.
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The more I learn, the less I know.
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