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Author Topic: In 95.1a, can low tech be implemented?  (Read 1554 times)

LukeDawson

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In 95.1a, can low tech be implemented?
« on: September 27, 2022, 07:55:09 PM »

In the last patch, I saw low-tech chowing down on a nice dinner of poop. But armor has received improvements. Additionally, if memeslaughts, moras, or legions/xiv are still bad, I don't want to waste my time fitting them. Did the armor/burn drive improvement make a difference?
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Dri

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Re: In 95.1a, can low tech be implemented?
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2022, 08:03:07 PM »

Burn Drive was originally cancelable, then Alex swung the ol' nerf bat. Glad it is back to how it was—it is now risk-free to use and you can stop exactly where you want to.
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Thaago

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Re: In 95.1a, can low tech be implemented?
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2022, 09:38:00 PM »

Last version low tech was slightly behind but beat the hardest fights in the game without too much bother - the ships were perfectly viable to use, just not quite up to the level of the other techs.

This version I'd say the Onslaught is easily the strongest capital ship/DP, Enforcers are good to endgame with officers (if the deployment points/number of officers supports it) and quite strong with reserve deployment (7DP!), and Dominators are strong except for Onslaught fitting the same profile and doing it better. With battlecarrier buffs (and the carrier buffs in general) the Mora is in a good place if what the fleet wants is a slow but bricky carrier; Legions are slightly behind but just need a bit more OP to be good. Even Condors are... acceptable... for the early game.
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Megas

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Re: In 95.1a, can low tech be implemented?
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2022, 05:22:25 AM »

Burn Drive was originally cancelable, then Alex swung the ol' nerf bat. Glad it is back to how it was—it is now risk-free to use and you can stop exactly where you want to.
Burn Drive could not be cancelled originally, then it could be in one of the later 0.7.x releases, then reverted back in 0.8, then made cancellable again in the latest releases.
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Igncom1

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Re: In 95.1a, can low tech be implemented?
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2022, 05:54:56 AM »

low tech has never been bad. They've just not been hightech or midline or prates and so on.

Onslaughts have always been good, calling them memeslaughts is just a coping mechanism.
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Vanshilar

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Re: In 95.1a, can low tech be implemented?
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2022, 11:21:46 AM »

This version I'd say the Onslaught is easily the strongest capital ship/DP, Enforcers are good to endgame with officers (if the deployment points/number of officers supports it) and quite strong with reserve deployment (7DP!), and Dominators are strong except for Onslaught fitting the same profile and doing it better. With battlecarrier buffs (and the carrier buffs in general) the Mora is in a good place if what the fleet wants is a slow but bricky carrier; Legions are slightly behind but just need a bit more OP to be good.

Funny enough, right now I'm finding that player-piloted base Legion can do more damage than the Legion XIV and result in quicker battles. I haven't really played around with Onslaught nor Onslaught XIV much yet but right now I don't see how they can beat it since their flux stats are similar, but the Legion and Legion XIV have more non-flux dependent sources of damage (i.e. fighters and missiles). Maybe I'll end up finding a way for Onslaught or Onslaught XIV to do more damage, dunno.

Basically using (standard) Legion with Mjolnirs, Light Needlers with Ballistic Rangefinder, Cobras, and Proximity Charge Launchers on manual control. Generally speaking, it's using the first 3 on autofire (Cobras are engage and regroup as needed), with the Prox used for big, important targets (mostly Radiants). Basically I burn drive toward them and unload a bunch of Prox on my way in. Combined with my other weapons, that's just way too much burst damage for the Radiant to handle. I can also use the Prox against fighter swarms when needed if I feel like it.

Player-piloted Legion XIV (Squalls/HVD/Cobras/Light Needlers but no Ballistic Rangefinder) usually does around 23-25% of overall damage in a Gryphon spam fleet vs triple Ordos, but player-piloted (base) Legion does around 26-28% of overall damage. And the Prox really make the Radiants a breeze, which means that the fight doesn't get disrupted by the initial Radiant nor the end Radiants (where there may be up to 4 Radiants on the field at once), since I just continually use burn drive toward the closest Radiant and unleash my Prox and other weapons on it, then rinse and repeat. That makes the last part of the fight (when the Radiants start pouring in) go really quickly -- and more importantly, safely.

Onslaught or Onslaught XIV may end up better after I play around with it but right now I'm not really seeing how. Onslaught has slightly better flux than Legion but Cobras do a lot of flux-free damage, so I'm not seeing how Onslaught can make up that difference; I'm not sure if TPC ends up being *that* flux efficient. Paragon was too slow. Astral didn't have much beyond its fighters and Squalls. Conquest has way better flux but I'm not sure if I want to bother learning to pilot broadside for it (Legion was simple to pilot, point nose toward target on autofire, burn and Prox if Radiant). I'll have to see if Odyssey can put up similar damage numbers but its weapon mounts are, like the Conquest, a bit awkward for player piloting.

So in terms of player piloting, for the non-special capitals (i.e. not Radiant which takes significant skills investment nor Ziggurat which is a unique ship with its own issues and needs Omega weapons to fully utilize), it seems like the base Legion actually does the best for me right now. It's the fastest I've been able to complete a triple Ordos.
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: In 95.1a, can low tech be implemented?
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2022, 12:38:59 PM »

It's possible the fact that you're likely saturating any and all PD defenses with the Gryphon spam fleet is amplifying the fighter/missile payload of the Legion, as well as likely not needing as much defense.  Proximity Launcher Legion does need to get up close and personal, so having the fleet on it's back foot already from flux free damage helps a lot, as well as keep it's bombers packing reapers alive longer.

Although looking at Proximity Launchers again, I always forget they exist, and am always surprised again by how good they are in terms for raw numbers.  Each one is a medium slot with 500 HE DPS.  So 1000 armor penetration with heavy blaster DPS that lasts for 50 seconds flux free.  EMR and Elite Missile specialization bump that up to 750 HE DPS (Plasma Cannon levels of raw DPS!) for 100 seconds.  Legion becomes the equivalent DPS of 5 plasma cannons flux free and adds needlers for sustained shield pressure.

I'd wonder about running into a multiple Guardian fitted Radiant, but you're likely firing from close enough and providing the projectiles your shield long enough it doesn't have time to shoot anything down.

In regards to Onslaughts, they really wants Ordinance Expertise (Elite if you can swing it).  Since Onslaught has 360 OP and Legions only 260, the typical flux dissipation difference is larger than you might initially think since you can spend more OP on guns and on vents.  100 OP spent on guns translates into 200 more flux dissipation and 4000 more flux capacity.

Onslaught also does have the advantage of outranging hard flux Radiants (and pretty much anything that isn't a Gauss Cannon), so it can run up enemy flux with it TPCs and leave it's shields down (or up and eating soft flux from beams).  My typical Onslaught build includes enough PD to not care about long range missiles or fighters.  I also typically mount quad Typhoon reapers with Elite Missile specialization for a personally piloted Onslaught - a burn drive in and point blank salvos of 4 reapers on any high-ish flux capital will typically force a long overload, followed up 10 seconds later by 16,000 raw HE damage from the second salvo.

Of course, the reapers are only about half the DPS of the Proximity Launchers, and 4/5ths the total damage (4000*5=20,000 versus 500*50 = 25,000).

For awhile I was trying a neural linked Onslaught to Afflictor, trying to get the entropy window to line up with the reaper salvo, but felt like more effort than it was worth.

Odyssey is more about hit and run tactics, and using it's speed to survive encounters solo rather than overwhelming DPS, which is what it looks like you'd want.  If you're running a Gryphon missile spam fleet, the Odyssey is not bringing as much as the Legion to the table.  The medium missile placement is not good except for guided missiles, so you're likely limited to Sabots or Harpoons.  It does bring half the Legion fighter compliment though, and it's missiles aren't that far from a Gryphon loadout, and happens to tack on 2 plasma cannons, but I think five Missile Specialization Proximity launchers are going to be hard to beat.

I will note, a pure low tech fleet (i.e. not a spam gryphon fleet) properly setup does work these days, and can certainly handle anything the game throws at it.
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Draba

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Re: In 95.1a, can low tech be implemented?
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2022, 02:28:46 PM »

Odyssey is more about hit and run tactics, and using it's speed to survive encounters solo rather than overwhelming DPS, which is what it looks like you'd want.  If you're running a Gryphon missile spam fleet, the Odyssey is not bringing as much as the Legion to the table.  The medium missile placement is not good except for guided missiles, so you're likely limited to Sabots or Harpoons.  It does bring half the Legion fighter compliment though, and it's missiles aren't that far from a Gryphon loadout, and happens to tack on 2 plasma cannons, but I think five Missile Specialization Proximity launchers are going to be hard to beat.
The 2 front M missiles have good enough arcs for reapers, offside M can be harpoon under player control. Those combined with 2 HILs+L missile hurt. Less raw damage than proxies but with Gryphons keeping shields down player Odyssey can get bombers and have almost 100% uptime on HIL, should be at least close in performance. Squalls+HIL are the very best buddies in Starsector IMO (as mentioned, a constant stream of high health missiles also helps fighters/other missiles ofc).
« Last Edit: September 28, 2022, 02:31:34 PM by Draba »
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Ruddygreat

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Re: In 95.1a, can low tech be implemented?
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2022, 02:29:41 PM »

I've been playing mostly low tech (or low tech-adjacent modded factions) for the majority of my playtime in .95.1 & I've been having a blast, with the skill rework (special shouts out to polarised armour & ordnance expertiese) & the new LT ships, it feels like LT is the best it's been for a while.

e.g, the eradicator is frankly overpowered for it's DP & more or less forces the eagle out of a job (though the eagle does still have a place as a boring lineholder but that's eh), the manticore is a v nice sunder analogue & the vanguard is a very good vanguard (heh) for your fleet, capping points & distracting enemies before it runs outta missiles and / or dies in a blaze of glory.

Vanshilar

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Re: In 95.1a, can low tech be implemented?
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2022, 08:58:31 PM »

It's possible the fact that you're likely saturating any and all PD defenses with the Gryphon spam fleet is amplifying the fighter/missile payload of the Legion, as well as likely not needing as much defense.  Proximity Launcher Legion does need to get up close and personal, so having the fleet on it's back foot already from flux free damage helps a lot, as well as keep it's bombers packing reapers alive longer.

Yeah it's possible that it's more of a "win more" type of setup. However generally speaking I aim for very offensively-oriented fleets, since the goal is to kill the enemy ships, ideally quickly and easily, especially if you're going for triple Ordos. (This fight I play in double speed, so that it doesn't take too long.) So sure, I'm assuming that the Legion is getting support (clearing out the rest of the space of fighters and missiles), but then again, I have 200 other DP that I can use to ensure that. So it may not be a solo ship, but I'm not sure if an Onslaught is a good solo ship either considering its exposed engines.

Although looking at Proximity Launchers again, I always forget they exist, and am always surprised again by how good they are in terms for raw numbers.

Yeah it's actually 825 HE DPS at 550 HE hit strength due to the +10% damage bonus from Missile Spec, so it's a lot of damage. However, the AI sucks at using it, so it's more or less confined to player use. But yeah that's really the key in this case, being able to overwhelm Radiants quickly so that they don't jeopardize the fleet. Hence why either performs better than Legion XIV.

Yeah I did end up trying Onslaught XIV, and it ends up around the same as the (base) Legion, i.e. around 26-28% of overall damage. The extra OP actually went more toward having conveniences like Auxiliary Thrusters and some Flak Cannons covering the rear, but overall I used pretty much the same tactics (going up through the middle of the enemy fleet, hitting the biggest ships, including spamming Prox on Radiants, letting the Gryphons do the rest) and got pretty much the same results. The Onslaught did tend to max out on flux more though, but probably just because I put too many weapons on it.

Of course, the reapers are only about half the DPS of the Proximity Launchers, and 4/5ths the total damage (4000*5=20,000 versus 500*50 = 25,000).

The Prox also takes care of bad stuff in between (i.e. if the Radiant launches Reapers or other stuff at you), and it's not subject to Damage Control's Elite effect, so I think it does better than Reapers. Haven't really tried Reapers that much though.

I will note, a pure low tech fleet (i.e. not a spam gryphon fleet) properly setup does work these days, and can certainly handle anything the game throws at it.

Yeah I was looking more at "a (base) Legion as a player-piloted capital ship compared to the other capital ships" rather than "a (base) Legion as a low-tech ship". But at least in terms of the capital ships (i.e. Legion, Onslaught) low-tech looks pretty good as an immovable wrecking ball. Burn Drive is fun for moving around. I'm not sure how well a pure low-tech fleet fares against swarms, since they may not have the speed to chase down frigates, but they're at least good for the center.
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Thaago

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Re: In 95.1a, can low tech be implemented?
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2022, 11:44:49 PM »

Last version when I did a pure low tech run fast enemy frigates were an issue at the start, as either Remnants or TT frigates are just way better than Lashers (I wasn't using SO Luddic path stuff then). However I found that having several decks of interceptors on a command group was an effective and efficient counter (uses a lot of command points, but now there are skills in the leadership branch that give very large bonuses to that). I don't claim for it to be optimal as that was last version with a different skill balance, but a Legion with Gladii + Talons (saving OP so the guns and missiles were still good) and a few Condors with Thunders did the trick.

A mixed fleet with something high tech to cover the frigate side is stronger, but finding that I needed to use carriers while roleplaying pure low tech was a fun challenge.
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Draba

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Re: In 95.1a, can low tech be implemented?
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2022, 01:22:28 AM »

I'm not sure how well a pure low-tech fleet fares against swarms, since they may not have the speed to chase down frigates, but they're at least good for the center.
Enforcers have great arcs on 5 M ballistics and some missiles on top, with their low cost they are excellent against frigates.

Once you get Onslaughts they are basically mobile black holes swallowing frigates, capital ITU+turreted kinetics+side devastators clean up the chaff in seconds.
TPCs can charge while they are turning so they also do not have the Dominator's clumsiness problem.

Dominator is a bit trickier, main guns seem to be the most prominent feature but they suck real hard against mobile targets or when the ship is taking >moderate damage and starts wiggling.
Thought rangefinder sucks for a long time but came back to using it on Dominator, rangefinder railguns and heavy maulers in turrets really help against swarms and make the ship a nasty artillery piece at 900-1000 base range.

Eradicator is generally good with decent coverage, not much to say there.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2022, 01:24:13 AM by Draba »
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