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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: anyone else despise the buoy mechanics?  (Read 2599 times)

spazza

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anyone else despise the buoy mechanics?
« on: September 27, 2022, 06:32:09 PM »

im essentially obligated to do something each fight and if i dont do it well enough my enemy summons 36 ships in a fight, probably a case of dont like dont play but i like every single other piece of gameplay besides "sometimes you just straight up fight each other and sometimes you have to jockey over buoys mostly so the enemy doesnt get to summon a sector sweeping fleet because i dont have as many ships"
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robepriority

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Re: anyone else despise the buoy mechanics?
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2022, 07:51:53 PM »

Initial DP is determined primarily by officer count - the maximum DP under normal battlesize is 240.

Objectives help you deploy up to 240 if you have the officer disadvantage, but if you (or your opponent) started with 240 it doesn't spike past that.

cytokine

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Re: anyone else despise the buoy mechanics?
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2022, 05:32:24 AM »

I was going to reply: "If there was an option for it in settings.json, I would probably disable objectives."
Code
"maxNoObjectiveBattleSize":100, # maximum number of supplies-to-recover on the smaller side for the battle to not have objectives
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Megas

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Re: anyone else despise the buoy mechanics?
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2022, 08:03:18 AM »

Yes, I dislike objectives, and the game is better off without them.
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Grievous69

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Re: anyone else despise the buoy mechanics?
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2022, 08:23:57 AM »

I too love when the game let you camp in a corner and cheese the AI /s
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KopiG

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Re: anyone else despise the buoy mechanics?
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2022, 03:42:26 PM »

Ye I never liked it either.
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Ruddygreat

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Re: anyone else despise the buoy mechanics?
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2022, 05:02:08 PM »

im essentially obligated to do something each fight and if i dont do it well enough my enemy summons 36 ships in a fight, probably a case of dont like dont play but i like every single other piece of gameplay besides "sometimes you just straight up fight each other and sometimes you have to jockey over buoys mostly so the enemy doesnt get to summon a sector sweeping fleet because i dont have as many ships"

yes, this is how the game forces you to be proactive in battles :v
To me they're the main feature that helps keep the battles unique (esp. when fighting the same faction mutlitple times in the row), it's a lot more interesting when you just barely don't get to capture an objective & have to actually think about what you're going to do instead of hitting the "all" button in the deploy menu.

Though if you want something to spice them up more, Secrets of The Frontier adds a few more objectives with more direct combat effects.

(And expanding on robepriority's post, the side with more, better officers gets a larger share of the initial DP, taking either of the officer skills usually always gives you a little more DP to work with)

Serenitis

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Re: anyone else despise the buoy mechanics?
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2022, 02:18:34 AM »

I don't particularly like objectives either.
The way I've found myself playing to minimise how much I have to care about them is to only ever deploy my flagship first.
Then immediately press G to bring up the reinforcement panel, and check how much of my fleet I can use immediately.

If it's all of it (or near enough) I can safely ignore all objectives, camp the bottom of the screen and wait for the opposing force to show up in numbers so I can instantly surround them, remove a few and go from there.

If it's "not enough" I can take the flagship solo and cap the nearest objective that gives more DP and wait for opposition to show up, remove as many as I can until it's not viable anymore then call in as many reinforcements as I can, fall back and and forget about objectives for the rest of the battle.

This also has the advantage of me no longer having to sit in dumb traffic jams because a tiny piece of space dust exists near the entry point.
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Linnis

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Re: anyone else despise the buoy mechanics?
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2022, 02:19:03 PM »

I too love when the game let you camp in a corner and cheese the AI /s

Is it cheesing when its one of the least time efficient way of playing the game?
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TJJ

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Re: anyone else despise the buoy mechanics?
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2022, 02:42:28 PM »

Perhaps the buoys need to offer something more than just DP.
Mini-stations might be interesting; arm them with LRM batteries, fighters etc, so they can project combat power a reasonable distance from their location.

More generally though, corner camping has plagued the game from almost the beginning; it needs to be addressed as it leads to combat becoming stale & repetitive.
Perhaps reshaping the combat zone into a circle would be enough; no corners, no corner camping!
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Grievous69

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Re: anyone else despise the buoy mechanics?
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2022, 11:40:16 PM »

I too love when the game let you camp in a corner and cheese the AI /s

Is it cheesing when its one of the least time efficient way of playing the game?
I mean such tactics in most cases aren't efficient. Cheesing is usually done if the player wants to go with a risk free way, or is fighting something really hard and that's the only way.

The most obvious example is hiding behind some terrain and plinking away at a boss from long range. Obviously takes a while but you can do it safely.
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BCS

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Re: anyone else despise the buoy mechanics?
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2022, 12:18:08 AM »

I like the objective mechanic because it gives frigates something to do as otherwise they are almost completely obsolete in big fights(except for outliers like Hyperion or Monitor) - I assume that was the goal. The problem is that the objectives themsevles are poorly executed and usually don't actually achieve what they're supposed to.

Take this for example. The two objectives are right next to my fleet so I don't need frigates to take them at all(there is one possible objective configuration - the diamond one - where the nearest objective is right in front of your fleet so you end up capturing it even without trying, just by flying over it) Also note how I get screwed and got two Comm Relays - which do nothing for me because I already deployed my entire fleet - while the enemy gets the much more valuable Nav Buoy and Sensor Jammer. Finally the map is quite clearly split in two so both me and the enemy can get our own objectives and call it a day.

Quick and dirty mockup of how I would like objectives to look like. Uneven amount so that there is always one to fight over, out of the way of the main fighting to make frigates more relevant and mirrored so that you don't get screwed by positioning.

I too love when the game let you camp in a corner and cheese the AI /s

If your fleet is stronger then hiding in a corner is not necessary. If your fleet is weaker then it's downright suicidal because your ships don't have anywhere to retreat and will constantly block one another. I don't think camping corners is exploitable, objectives or not.
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Megas

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Re: anyone else despise the buoy mechanics?
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2022, 06:02:21 AM »

I like the objective mechanic because it gives frigates something to do as otherwise they are almost completely obsolete in big fights(except for outliers like Hyperion or Monitor) - I assume that was the goal. The problem is that the objectives themsevles are poorly executed and usually don't actually achieve what they're supposed to.
What I do not like is frigates are necessary to get the points.  I usually bring few frigates, but I do not like bringing frigates because without Leadership skills (especially Wolfpack Tactics), they run out of PPT (Combat Endurance alone is not enough) and die in endgame fights.

More generally though, corner camping has plagued the game from almost the beginning; it needs to be addressed as it leads to combat becoming stale & repetitive.
Perhaps reshaping the combat zone into a circle would be enough; no corners, no corner camping!
Worst part is the enemy cowers more than in pre-0.8 releases.  It is not just the player cheesing the AI.  The cowardly AI will backpedal until cornered if allowed.


The only time I have cheesed the corner lately is when I play with solo Ziggurat, especially against Tesseracts where Ziggurat will die if it tries to fight Omega ships out in the open.  The only way I could solo Ziggurat vs. Tesseract fights is to abuse corner cheese.  Even with corner cheese, a mistake or two can cost me the fight.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2022, 06:04:11 AM by Megas »
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Megas

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Re: anyone else despise the buoy mechanics?
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2022, 09:57:59 AM »

Perhaps reshaping the combat zone into a circle would be enough; no corners, no corner camping!
But there could be wall camping, whether the field is a square or circle.

I have wall camped before, but usually in fights that take more time than more of my ships have PPT.  If my ships run out of PPT, I want them off the field immediately, not wasting a minute or more fleeing while precious CR is decaying.

Player cannot tell ships to rally at the edge of the map, so the only way to force them there is heavy escort the flagship and make the flagship camp at the edge because the game will not let the player rally ships at the edge any other way.  I want to wait at the edge if my PPT is not enough time to kill everything in one round.

P.S.  Sometimes it is fun to ambush distracted enemies at my edge of the screen by burning it more ships and have them pounce before their cowardly behavior can save them.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2022, 10:00:44 AM by Megas »
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Igncom1

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Re: anyone else despise the buoy mechanics?
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2022, 10:57:05 AM »

I like the buoys.

But what would be the alternative? A king of the hill objective like a below the map asteroid base to control? As it is there isn't much to fight over in literal empty space so I'm sure we can contrive something to fight near beyond every space battle being a pursuit.

Perhaps a targeting array that gives whomever holds it for a couple minutes without interdiction a range boost? (bigger then the ECM current one) So if you don't contest it, you can get sniped? People might not like that sort of thing as anybody likes being able to win against the odds when facing an entire armada.

Of course split the objective up and you are back where you started.

Some battles don't even have the buoys and frankly they aren't much different to me. The frigates do less frig on frig duels off the sides of the battle line and a little more harassment on the fringes. Buoys add terrain to an otherwise bland empty battlemap. People hate meteorite showers, and entropy ridden black holes are actually aweful to fight in.

So what could an on map objective add that people wouldn't hate? If not deployment points, then what? We already have weapon range and speed. A CR timer boost? A salvage boost?
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