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[FooF]

I love the new skill tree and, to me, it is the best iteration we've had. However, after playing with this version over I don't know how many runs, I would propose a slight tweak on the early skills and one slight tweak for Combat.

All Piloted Ship skills are Tier 1* (*this obviously doesn't apply to the T5 Combat skills but more on that later)

I now believe that all four Technology and Industry piloted-ship skills should be available at any time. It's not that the Tier 1 skills in Tech or Industry (as current) are bad but for certain builds, I desperately wish to skip them. My suggestion is to combine the Tier 2 combat skills into the Tier 1 level and simply require the (current) Tier 3 skills require 2 lower tier skills. (That is to say Navigation/Sensors/Gunnery Implants/EWP and Bulk Transport/Salvaging/Field Repairs/Ordnance Expertise/Polarized Armor would all be T1).

I also don't think the Tier 2 Combat skills are any better or worse than the T1 skills from Combat: they're just locked behind an additional pick. Yes, it homogenizes the trees a bit but having access to the combat skills at any given point gives the player a bit more freedom to boost their flagship.

The first T5 Combat pick is available after 3 points spent on lower tier skills. The 2nd after 4.

That is to say, you can pick System Expertise or Missile Spec after 3 picks in Combat but if you want both, you have to go back down into T1 before getting it unlocked (the 1st T5 skill doesn't count). This just makes the 1st T5 pick one skill point sooner. I'm of the opinion that the T5 Combat picks are not as game-changing as the other 3 trees' T5s, though still very good. I think the first one could be had earlier, though having both should require the full investment.

Partially due to conditions of Suggestion 1, even if I have 5 flagship skills (from 3 trees), I still can't get the Combat T5 skills and I tend to lag behind my subordinate officers. This would lead to more builds potentially having 3 T5 skills from 3 different trees, which is kind of strong, I admit. However, I'm a big proponent of giving flagship skills the most opportunity of all the skills out there because they're competing against hugely influential fleet skills.

Either one would make me happy and save me a skill point or two. I don't like increasing the Level Cap and would like to play as the game is intended but now that I've played a bit, it would help my playstyle a lot to have these tweaks. You may disagree!

[Megas]

While I would like it, this would give less incentive to use Industry.  (I do not know if I want to spend three extra points on Hull Restoration unless I badly need Industrial Planning on the two or three planets my commander personally governs.  Two skills is already pushing it.  Both Industry combat skills are great, though.)  Aside from the combat and capstone skills, nothing in Industry helps in a fight, and all the multi-Ordos smashers care about is combat power from Leadership and other trees' combat skills.  (When has anyone seen a fleet without BotB aside from maybe Support Doctrine builds?)  Technology is less affected since it has some combat fleet skills between combat and capstones.  Industry needs more skills that give minor combat bonuses beyond the campaign bonus like Tactical Drills or Hull Restoration do.

Industry combat skills becoming tier 1 and easier to get might make Neural Link a bit more attractive, though.

[CryIsFree]

this would give less incentive to use Industry

I would argue the opposite. As it stands, the industry tree has very little appeal to a late game fleet, and even skills that would largely benefit one (as any ship greatly benefits from elite PA and OE) are "locked" behind the 3 very early game skills on that tree, and as good as the T2 ones are, they aren't worth 2 skill points.

I suspect switching, or even merging tiers 1 and 2 would make the industry tree more attractive on the late game, maybe even making the further tiers more used, since the opportunity cost of "wasting" a point on tier one would be removed

Furthermore it has always seemed weird to me that officers can get Polarized Armour, Ordnance Expertise, Gunnery Implants and Energy Weapon Mastery with no opportunity cost whereas the player has to spend a point in the respective skilltree. It never felt too troublesome on the Technology Tree since Navigation and Sensors are good from early to super late game, but Industry really makes me feel bad about it. The tier two combat skills never felt like an issue because I'm always piloting a ship, thus always speccing into combat.

Anyways, I think Merging the tiers rather then swapping them would be ideal for Industry, but I don't think Technology or Combat need any tweaks

[BCS]

As someone who doesn't pilot, another vote for merge, not swap. Combat skills are useless to me.

[TaLaR]

Yeah, never got the industry combat skills exactly because having to take the relatively useless tier 1 fleetwides is too much of a tax. And as others pointed, it doesn't feel good to be inferior to officers that don't have such limitations.

[Grievous69]

Agreed on having the option to immediately get Industry and Tech personal skills. Not sure how I feel about getting Combat capstones sooner. I'd argue they ARE game changers, but heavily depend on which type of ship you're piloting. Which is why we have a choice duh. Especially getting both T5 Combat skills that early could lead to some broken comboes. Imagine the new Pegasus with both of those skills, stuff of nightmares. Honestly I feel like Combat is in a nice place, many ships have missiles and can get a lot out of Missile Spec, while Systems Expertise is a bit more niche, it's also really potent sometimes. And ships that don't get much out of both, well tough luck, they're probably stronger in another department.

[Serenitis]

I don't have any issue with swapping skills around, or merging some of the tiers.
It doesn't make a lot of difference to me, but if it opens up some additional choices for others then its a net positive.

[Megas]

this would give less incentive to use Industry

I would argue the opposite. As it stands, the industry tree has very little appeal to a late game fleet, and even skills that would largely benefit one (as any ship greatly benefits from elite PA and OE) are "locked" behind the 3 very early game skills on that tree, and as good as the T2 ones are, they aren't worth 2 skill points.

At least less incentive to use non-combat Industry.

If the Industry combat skills were tier 1, I would have no incentive to go beyond that because getting the high-tier campaign stuff would cost too many points.  (I spend just as many points in the end now, but getting one before getting the personal skills means it is only one point after that to a capstone.)

Ordnance Expert may not be worth two, but it seems stronger than most personal skills aside.  I think at least Ordnance Expert is worth more than one, possibly nearly on par with a Combat capstone.  Not sure about Polarized Armor, but it is vital for armor tank ships (especially those without shields), and the faster venting at elite is nice for flagships.


If Tech and Industry combat skills are demoted to tier 1, and the campaign skills are not boosted, then all of Industry should be tier 1, even the capstones (or maybe capstones being tier 2 or 3), because it seems all people care about is combat power.


As for Combat skills, they probably ought to be the same tier as Leadership officer skills, so that player needs at least four levels to get one of them then level five for the other, just like officers.  I do not think the Combat capstones are on par with Leadership capstones and maybe Automated Ships.  (Neural Link is crippled.)

[Alex]

Hmm. The reason for keeping the personal ship tech/industry skills in tier 2 is not that they're stronger than regular combat skills, but rather, it's to gate access to "yet more combat skills" a little. If they're all tier 1, you could pick up every single combat skill with 14 skill points (and probably put that last point into Crew Training, or something). Not a *huge* difference from the current state of affairs, perhaps, but getting easy access to these skills is a little perk of going up into tech or industry. I don't think it'd feel right to have those always available to every build.

As someone who doesn't pilot, another vote for merge, not swap. Combat skills are useless to me.

(Just FYI, you can just pick 2 skills from tier 1 and skip tier 2 entirely.)

[gG_pilot]

As someone who doesn't pilot, another vote for merge, not swap. Combat skills are useless to me.

(Just FYI, you can just pick 2 skills from tier 1 and skip tier 2 entirely.)

Here is another one who dont pilot.  My fingers are too   stiff for  pressing 20 keys in  blazing speed for 3  minutes.
Is it possible to introduce AI  which support player?
Allow me to control  only mouse for ship  aim, then two keys  for fuel, then two keys  for  strafe. I know  it is still  5  inputs  but I think  I  can manage them, while AI  takes care weapons, shield and system.

Anyway, by skipping 2 pilot  only skills (as you reccomend) how many build options  players have left ?
In  fact, player who dont pilot but want some  top industrial skills is forced to take both T1 skills.

[SonnaBanana]

Hmm. The reason for keeping the personal ship tech/industry skills in tier 2 is not that they're stronger than regular combat skills, but rather, it's to gate access to "yet more combat skills" a little. If they're all tier 1, you could pick up every single combat skill with 14 skill points (and probably put that last point into Crew Training, or something). Not a *huge* difference from the current state of affairs, perhaps, but getting easy access to these skills is a little perk of going up into tech or industry. I don't think it'd feel right to have those always available to every build.

For Tech, it screws over NL hard because it is dependent on skill points spent on pilot skills.

[Wyvern]

Hmm. The reason for keeping the personal ship tech/industry skills in tier 2 is not that they're stronger than regular combat skills, but rather, it's to gate access to "yet more combat skills" a little.

To be fair, Gunnery Implants and Ordnance Expertise are absolutely stronger than regular combat skills, and, imo, worth spending the extra skill points to get. (They're not worth two skill points, exactly, but you do still get the benefits of the t1 skills. Industry level one is a bit meh by endgame, but Sensors is a near-mandatory pick for me, and Bulk Transport is really nice to have before endgame...)

[Megas]

Hmm. The reason for keeping the personal ship tech/industry skills in tier 2 is not that they're stronger than regular combat skills, but rather, it's to gate access to "yet more combat skills" a little.

To be fair, Gunnery Implants and Ordnance Expertise are absolutely stronger than regular combat skills, and, imo, worth spending the extra skill points to get. (They're not worth two skill points, exactly, but you do still get the benefits of the t1 skills. Industry level one is a bit meh by endgame, but Sensors is a near-mandatory pick for me, and Bulk Transport is really nice to have before endgame...)

I agree.

For me, Navigation is the mandatory skill because without it, I would need six tugs to reach burn 20 with a fleet with Ziggurat (or other battleship with burn 7) in it.  (Ziggurat with Phase Anchor neither has OP nor s-mod to spare for Augmented Engines.)  Even with Navigation, four tugs are a bit excessive.  Sensors is nice at times (reduced profile and higher dark speed), but I just want the burn 20 for general travel.  Also, if I actually use Ziggurat and few other support ships to stay at 100 DP or less, then I definitely want Navigation because I will not have the four tugs to reach burn 20.

Field Repairs has niche use in encounters that take more than one round to win.  Some of the armor and hull damage gets repaired between rounds.  Aside from that, Field Repairs is handy to get recovered ships back online faster.

If I did not build for Hull Restoration and using recovered ships in combat quickly after recovery, Bulk Transport would be convenient.

[CryIsFree]

The reason for keeping the personal ship tech/industry skills in tier 2 is [...] to gate access to "yet more combat skills" a little. If they're all tier 1, you could pick up every single combat skill with 14 skill points (and probably put that last point into Crew Training, or something).

But what ends up effectively happening is, when trying to pick the 3-6 skills I left for combat after a respect, I don't have access to skills an officer would without investing extra in industry which is largely useless to the late game. So you're forced to make a compromise of getting 5 combat skills with 6 points or just picking sub optimal combat skills instead. What really bothers me is the asymmetry of being able to pick any skill on a officer vs having to invest a lot more as a player to get some of them.

If what you're worried about is 14 combat skill points, I don't think that is particularly problematic because not only you can already get almost that, but its not particularly strong because the benefits you are getting to one ship are vastly outweighed by the bonus you can get in extra officers, more elite skills for officers, fleetwide flux and vents buff with extra vents and capacitators available, extra Smods etc. Personally I have never felt the need to go over 6 skills on a ship I was piloting, especially when thinking of what the non combat skills have to offer