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Author Topic: Is it time to get rid of Blast Doors?  (Read 6901 times)

vladokapuh

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Re: Is it time to get rid of Blast Doors?
« Reply #60 on: August 17, 2022, 01:22:19 PM »

would still never pick it, i dont like bonuses that apply only when the ship fails, i prefer my ship not to fail
bulkhead special bonus gets useless with smods and officers all around, but its hull bonus is good. Blast doors needs good stat bonuses to compete too. I liked the idea of flat bonus instead of percent, that gives them two different uses on different ships.
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Cegorach

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Re: Is it time to get rid of Blast Doors?
« Reply #61 on: August 18, 2022, 12:34:48 AM »

Correct! There is no difficulty in acquiring crew, in maintaining crew (through replenishment or just not losing them by playing non-low-tech), in getting rid of it, and it doesn't really impact the game outside of making your ships have less CR sometimes. Kinda like running out of supplies.

Why do you hate Khorne.
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Goumindong

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Re: Is it time to get rid of Blast Doors?
« Reply #62 on: August 18, 2022, 01:13:03 AM »

The limit for losing ships and expanding your fleet through salvage is supplies.
Mostly, this makes me wonder about what your strategies for salvaging are.

Because it's entirely possible for a proper salvage fleet to run net positive on supplies.

Yea if you do enough things that aren’t salvaging ships then you can “continually” salvage ships provided you have the skills that allow you to do this.


This is just saying that you use skills and moderate your salvaging in order to go back less. That doesn’t make crew not redundant.

Also the answer is that I tend to mothball a ship if I cannot crew it and need to bring it back…. The exact same as if I do t have enough supplies to return it to full CR…
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calantlar

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Re: Is it time to get rid of Blast Doors?
« Reply #63 on: August 20, 2022, 01:05:16 PM »

My take on this is probably no, there are certainly some builds that won't be sustainable without blast doors and thus it shouldn't be removed.

However, yes it is certainly too weak, in the long term this could be rectified with a redesign of the hullmods but in the short term.

Bump up the Hull to 30% from 20%, Crew loss reduction to 75% from 50 and changes the OP cost to 3 for Frigates, 7 for destroyers, 10 for Cruisers and 15 for capitals. This keeps the vanilla focus of crew survival central while making it more viable as a pick due to it's lower cost than reinforced bulkheads.

Long term though to make this hullmod a desirable pick IMO it should be a competetive offer compared to bulkheads, the suggestion of adding armour is a nice idea at first glance but buffing "Brick" builds is ill advised due to them already being not only viable, but strong just underrepresented. Instead I suggest that the hullmod be redesigned as follows.

OP cost: Unchanged
Effect: Ship is almost always recoverable. Suffer only 25% of normal combat casualties. Reduce damage to hull by 35% if Frigate, 30% if Destroyer, 25% if Cruiser or Capital. Increase hull HP by 20%. If Reinforced Bulkheads is also installed then damage reduction will always be 35% regardless of hull size, however hull HP increase will cap at 50%. Additionally, after being disabled in battle the ship will come to a halt, then after a short time (10s/15s/20s/25s) "resurrect", in this state the ship will be unable to fire weapons, use shields, phase shift or use ship abilities and begins moving at full speed but loses movement speed over time, down to a minimum of half it's max speed, in this state the ship will attempt to withdraw from the battlefield, if successful the vessel will be counted as retreated and thus remain part of your fleet even if you withdraw from the battlefield.

End result:
Buffs the hullmods usefulness as an actual combat pick and also provides useful hull tanking synergy with Elite Combat Endurance. Provides incentive to pick Bulkheads on top off Blast Doors but keeps Blast Doors as a useful and attractive alternative pick at the same OP cost. Makes dedicated hull tanking a real possibility. Adds utility that makes the pick more useful in some builds and/or circumstances as individual ships with this hullmod that are disabled may withdraw from the action while still allowing full use of their hull HP pools without them always becoming a "sunk cost" to the battle. The raw hull HP of Bulkheads will still keep bulkheads as a relevant option, especially on low tech capitals that can really make use of the hull HP.
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Megas

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Re: Is it time to get rid of Blast Doors?
« Reply #64 on: September 04, 2022, 08:37:21 AM »

Suggestion for additional buff for Blast Doors (and maybe Reinforced Bulkheads too):  Reduce chance of d-mods appearing if the ship is disabled and can be recovered (by 50% or whatever).
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Retry

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Re: Is it time to get rid of Blast Doors?
« Reply #65 on: September 04, 2022, 09:08:08 AM »

My take on this is probably no, there are certainly some builds that won't be sustainable without blast doors and thus it shouldn't be removed.
Genuine question: what builds exactly would become unsustainable without blast doors?
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FooF

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Re: Is it time to get rid of Blast Doors?
« Reply #66 on: September 05, 2022, 08:51:00 AM »

Suggestion for additional buff for Blast Doors (and maybe Reinforced Bulkheads too):  Reduce chance of d-mods appearing if the ship is disabled and can be recovered (by 50% or whatever).

I like this, but just for Blast Doors. Reinforced Bulkheads already has the "always recoverable" boon. So with Blast Doors, you're insuring against D-mods, though the ship itself might not be recoverable. I think +40% hull vs. +20% hull with reduced chance of D-mods is roughly parity. For the former, you're betting on the ship being tougher and not going down at all (or if it does, you recover it). For the latter, the base ship is weaker so it might go down but you've got a good chance it's still pristine.

Since there are other ways of ensuring a ship is recoverable, the D-mod effect might actually be a better deal. I know I'd add it to more ships. 
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calantlar

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Re: Is it time to get rid of Blast Doors?
« Reply #67 on: September 24, 2022, 08:05:43 AM »

My take on this is probably no, there are certainly some builds that won't be sustainable without blast doors and thus it shouldn't be removed.
Genuine question: what builds exactly would become unsustainable without blast doors?

Hull HP increase:
Delaying destroyers, built with max surivaibility to surive high damage for a hit or two.

Certain Hull tanking builds on Capitals and Cruisers. Notably not as strong as their closest comparison point of Heavy Armour + Various Offensive HullMods, but if you just need to buy time, these work and will get you more time, requires Heavy Armour, Blast Doors & Reinforced Bulkheads.

Crew Loss reduction:
Certain edge cases where you build to maximize profitability by keeping few crew around, usually only for deep space exploration and salvaging. I.e we are talking about adding this to an entire combat fleet, not just one or two ships, so as to maximize crew preservation since in this case we only brought a small overhead as a "just in case" buffer but no more, so preserving crew becomes key to keeping the expedition going not just fuel + supplies. (Rarely something you do late game, mostly an early, maybe mid-game thing. Late game you just don't care about the crew cost most of the time.)
« Last Edit: September 24, 2022, 08:13:22 AM by calantlar »
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vcuaoiwk

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Re: Is it time to get rid of Blast Doors?
« Reply #68 on: September 24, 2022, 02:04:31 PM »

While I agree the base game doesn't rly encourage you to prioritize Blast Doors I do think that it does play a sizeable role when factoring in all the mods out there.

One of my favorite builds is just the armor tank with Blast Doors installed and using the Better Deserved S-Mods 10% armor damage reduction. That 10% damage armor damage reduction really allows you to do some obscene builds (i.e. creating frigate/destroyer support tanks).

In general, I've found that if you see something that seems useless in the base game, then someone has a mod out there that takes advantage of it and its up to you to find out how to exploit "useless" game features use the modiverse. IMO this is the reason that people keep coming back to Starsector and propagates the tremendous replayability that this game has.

Also, as I write this.... I just realized it is Grievous69 that posted this.... however I do think the above has merit. One of my favorite things that keeps me coming back to this game is that I keep finding mods that flesh out game features and continually allow for entirely new game tactics. I think doing something like removing one of the most basic hullmods has long ramifications throughout the modiverse and hence can negatively impact player enjoyment (or positively impact because what the hell do I know).
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Rojnaz

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Re: Is it time to get rid of Blast Doors?
« Reply #69 on: September 24, 2022, 05:28:34 PM »

I only use Blast Doors for the same reason I use Recovery Shuttles, Roleplay, I feel bad for the poor crews lost in space forever...

"Armor for the damage reduction calculation only" (It's called residual armor?) may be a decent buff for Blast Doors, makes the hull harder and ships normally get +1 residual armor every 20 armor, I see it as a way of making some ships more durable in some niche scenarios(+10 residual armor makes a difference against most low damage per hit weapons and the thumper).

Another fun way of buffing it could be fixed Increases hull integrity, for example: +500 hull may not be that much for a Vanguard but its decent for a Wolf and amazing for a Shepherd.

In general I wish to see more hull mods for Hull tanking :P
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