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[Caymon Joestar]

Prompted by a point raised by Histidine, I propose to you this question:

Have the Astral and the Drover (By extension, Recall and Reserve Deployment Ship Systems) due to their nerfs and the general nerfs to carrier and the buff to non carriers, made them rather underpowered?

The Drover was nerfed to having 15DP from 12, Its ship system had it cooldown increased to 60 from like 30?, and now it draws from the replacement rate.

The Astral was nerfed to 50DP from 45, the system was given a 30 second cooldown from... having no cooldown actually.

At the time, these nerfs were pretty warranted as the astral was pretty good at nuking entire fleets before there were such things as semibreves or Destroyer Sized Bomber Fighters. And Drover Spam was also pretty good. Back in 0.9.1

But then, We lost like, carrier skills, carrier skills for officers, general fighter nerfs, then we got general non carrier/fighter buffs, the only skills that generally buff carriers being limited to the player character only (And it only having a small limit of 8 whole bays before it started getting weaker doesnt help either), needing to spend 2 skill points to get both when you have very stiff competition from skills like:

Wolfpack Tactics, Crew Training, Officer Training/Management, and Coordinated Maneuvers. And This is only within the LEADERSHIP Branch, it's only downhill from there.

The Drover simply isnt worth the 15 whole DP to simply field, for 15DP, you field a condor with a 5dp frigate as back up, A 10 DP Destroyer, a bunch of Frigates, etc. The system kills its replacement rate faster than any PD can. And 60 Seconds for what is basically 1-2 more wing members for 15 Seconds just isnt worth it.

The Astral on the other hand, still is pretty good with bombers, still kills a lot of stuff. But a point was raised during this discussion:

Why not just use 2 Herons instead?

A pretty big issue with Recall is that on a 30 second cooldown, you only get about 1 more wave in before your bombers start flying back or dropping like files and it makes normal fighters pretty unreliable.

Where as you have the heron with its targeting feed that gives benefits to every fighter and not just a specific group of them. Not to mention, the fighters are much more reliable, has a good mix of stats, faster, only cost 20 DP (So 40 for 2 vs 50 for 1 Astral). With the only debateable aspect being Astral having 1-2 Large Missiles vs the Heron's Universal Medium.

So What do you guys think? Do you think the drover and astral needs some of their nerfs lessened or even buffed to be in a better place?

[FooF]

In general, I agree that the Drover is lackluster now, but the Astral is still pretty good. The weird thing about the Astral is there just aren’t many of them to make an opinion. I rarely encounter them or use them either due to rarity or lack of blueprints.

Once the Drover bug is fixed, we’ll see. I think the root of their strength in prior patches has been sorted and a few of their nerfs could stand to be revisited. I don’t think they’re worth 15 DP.

As for the Astral, is it 25% more powerful than an Onslaught? It’s DP says it is. It’s different than an onslaught and its power lies more in its ability to stay behind and unleash hell. Again. And again. And again. It’s more of an artillery piece/force multiplier than anything. So, if it’s supported, it will do ruinous “free” damage befitting its cost. If it’s the fleet’s centerpiece, I think it’s too squishy to consider on par with all the battleships.

[Megas]

Reserve Deployment has two problems that need to disappear:  1) Drains rate (when rate is the prime carrier stat) and 2) Prevents bomber regeneration while active.  The rate drain is a self-destructive killer, similar to old Accelerated Ammo Feeder when it did not have the flux discount (which caused pre-0.8 Hammerhead to flux itself out easily), and the AI will happily use the system at the first opportunity and drain its rate.  And bombers not regenerating pigeonholes Drover as an interceptor boat.  The system now is so bad that literally having "No System" would be a buff for Drover (and other ships with it like Gemini).

Drover costing 15 DP is harsh, but it might be tolerable if the system was not so bad since Drover is otherwise a capable battlecarrier with good stats for its size (generous OP, good shields, easily supports frigate-tier firepower plus fighters).  Reserve Deployment needs to be fixed to at least not hurt the carrier for using it.

Recall Device has been overnerfed.  Even when trying to bypass the delay with two Neural Linked Astrals, it does not always reset when I need it (because cooldown is so long even when halved).  And sometimes, if I do get the system to reset after switching, the bombers are already on their way back and using the system is pointless.  So far, I had the best use of Recall when used it as a defensive system to engulf would-be flankers with six Warthogs, but AI does not use the system for engulfing flanking attackers with a death swarm of heavy fighters.  AI seems only able to use the system well enough with (mostly) bombers.  Aside from Astral, Recall Device nerf hurts Scintilla more, whose only option for bombers is Flash.

Heron is one that needs a buff, namely getting the same +10 OP buff Mora got.  Before Mora got +10 OP, both Mora and Heron had trouble functioning as battlecarriers out-of-the-box due to low OP.  Pre-buff Mora without s-mods needed to downsize something or leave (missile) mounts empty, but after the +10 OP buff, Mora can get by with all midgrade equipment (fighters and guns), ITU, and about 25+ OP left for flux.  Meanwhile, Heron got nothing when Mora was buffed, and it cannot function with guns unless it gets more OP through s-mods (while post-buff Mora does not need s-mods to get enough OP for a basic battlecarrier loadout).  If stock Heron gets all mid-grade equipment and ITU like Mora can (and keep it mind Heron already has less guns than Mora due to less mounts), it has about 10 OP or less left for flux stats - not enough!  Heron without s-mods has been reduced to an all-fighter platform because it does not have the OP to fill mounts plus ITU and have enough OP left for flux.

[Thaago]

The Drover needs its system to not be bugged, then we'll see, just as  Foof says. It's impossible to evaluate it at present because of it. Its stats are insanely better than a condor's in every aspect (speed, OP, shields, out of combat stats...), so is that worth +5 DP? It can mount bombers and support them with a great (if not broken like it is now) ship system, so maybe. We'll see.

Current carrier skills are the strongest they have been in a while, just with diminishing returns based on hull count to avoid spam. Officers didn't actually lose carrier skills: they got them for free, IF the player takes the leadership skills. This finally makes combat carriers viable, as the officers get to boost the gun/missile side without losing any fighter power (at least through skills, the OP tradeoff is still there). Carriers in general got strongly buffed this version... they just need a build that support them (leadership skills) and to not be spammed too badly (even moderate levels of spam have high net bonuses, just not high levels). This is evident in how the Condor, which is previous versions was laughably dead weight, is actually a valuable ship when supported.

In regards to Astral vs 2 Herons, I am not sure. I've used both successfully, but haven't tried doing a head to head comparison. Vs 2 Herons an Astral brings: fighter wings being in 1 combined strike; teleportation recall instead of damage boosting; much slower speed; 2 large missile mounts vs 2 mediums; 50OP vs 40OP; 1 saved officer. Same wing count overall (for skill purposes) and both can comfortably bring bombers in their slots as they have plenty of OP for their role as carriers.

Given the current state of large missiles, I think the offensive edge goes to Astrals while the defensive edge goes to Herons. Saving an officer can be a really big deal for Best of the Best builds, depending on what other ships are wanted.

[Draba]

Astral with daggers+squalls is very good. The 2 L missiles make it much better than 2 Herons IMO for almost any fleet.

Drover does seem weak in comparison.

[Megas]

Officers didn't actually lose carrier skills: they got them for free, IF the player takes the leadership skills.

This is the main reason why I am interested in battlecarrier loadouts.  Without the leadership skills, pure fighter carriers are not very effective, and if I try to use bombers, carrier rate goes down to 30% quickly.  Meanwhile, if I stick with the more durable and faster regenerating interceptors (like Talons and Broadswords), fighters last long enough to be useful.  Rate will still go down the 30% eventually, but not as fast as bombers, and maybe the fight will be nearly over by then.  When rate goes down to 30%, the carrier is effectively out of fighters for a long time, likely the rest of the battle, and all it has left is guns to shoot at the enemy.  For unskilled carriers, fighters are effectively missiles.  I want fighters to last at least as long as it takes for a warship to empty a double clip of missiles.

I wished Expanded Deck Crew was a viable alternative to carrier skills, but the bonuses are too low for the OP cost paid.

[prav]

I don't find any carriers to be useful in the current version. I suppose you could argue for the Legion, but the argument would hinge on the value of its guns, missiles and armor, not its fighter wings.

[Brainwright]

Frankly, I tend to find the nerfs have been counterproductive.  It's hard deploying destroyers and frigates against a carrier fleet, as the fighters chew them up the moment they push forward.

But now it's harder to deploy fighters on your own.  There's a mismatch.

[SCC]

Drover is definitely dysfunctional right now.

[Null Ganymede]

Heron is one that needs a buff, namely getting the same +10 OP buff Mora got.

Heron's not forced into a high risk brawl by its ship system. It's fine.

Heron can be a dedicated high-cost wing platform. Or it can cheap out on wings but become a PD/zone control beam disco ball, especially since carrier officers really want that elite PD skill anyway. It doesn't have the mounts or ship system for brawling unless it's some temporary meme SO flagship setup.

Mora's a decent 3-wing missile boat, or a close-in brawling wrecking ball. The latter needs all the OP it can get.

[Delta_of_Isaire]

Actually the real problem of the Drover is how it compares to the Heron. Even if you assume the Drover's ship system is fixed, that system will not be better than Targeting Feed. Meanwhile, the Heron is both faster (80 vs 75 speed) and has more fighter bays per DP (6.67 vs 7.5 DP per bay). So fixing Reserve Deployment alone is not enough - the Drover also needs 5-10 more speed and have its deployment cost reduced back to 12.

As for the Heron: it is currently the uncontested best carrier thanks to its combination of speed, DP per fighter bay and Targeting Feed. Yeah it doesn't have enough OP to fit guns, aside from a bit of PD. But that is necessary to balance its advantages. The Heron is, currently, a pure carrier. And that's fine. If you want to give more OP to the Heron so that it can fit real weapons, then you'd also have to bump its deployment cost up to like 22-24, and nobody wants that.

[smithney]

Heron's not forced into a high risk brawl by its ship system. It's fine.

Heron can be a dedicated high-cost wing platform. Or it can cheap out on wings but become a PD/zone control beam disco ball, especially since carrier officers really want that elite PD skill anyway. It doesn't have the mounts or ship system for brawling unless it's some temporary meme SO flagship setup.

I kinda got what Megas' gripes are in the Mora thread, though. Even now, Heron appears like it should be capable of more than just be a premium bomber platform with a side dish of support. It has an universal medium slot, but how often do you equip anything other than Pilums there, if anything at all?

If I compare Heron with Astral, the latter feels and plays like the ultimate anchor carrier, one you build your fleet around. Compared to it, Herons sound like the rational option for the captain who just needs a reliable fighter platform. Except right now, Heron and Astral compete for the same space of the high-end dedicated carrier, yet the former is easier to field thanks to its speed and logistics.

It gets to a point where Heron excels in what seems to be originally intended as an off-role. It would explain why Heron sports an universal medium slot; you would put whatever complemented your fighters there. But in a universe where the bomber build is significantly more useful than other builds, why put even a Pilum there if you get more output spamming bombers and staying far in the backline, where guns and beams have no practical use? Compared to that, Astral has large missile slots, which have far more useful options for the range at which it operates.

Heron might be my personal favorite hull, but I gotta admit it has an identity crisis, now that I think of it. It's just that unlike Eagle, Heron has a niche it excels at. The point is, is this a healthy state for the Heron to be in? Isn't its current state actually toxic to the potential build variety Heron could have?

On a slightly different note, what does Heron's state say about carriers in general? Only the battlecarriers seem to have a clearly defined character; all the midline carriers happen to be too good, or utterly useless. At the same time, Condor and Astral play basically the same as Heron, not really being representative of the tech class they belong to. Meanwhile, ships with built-in fighters, the rogue overhauls and Odyssey play so differently they don't get mentioned in the same conversation at all. It would appear as if dedicated carriers are too valuable to be missing from a regular fleet, but at the same time there's little space for variety. My point is, is anything inherently wrong with the nature of dedicated carriers that's toxic to their variety? Is it an effect of how fighters are designed? Why don't Converted Hangars ever make a ship broken, despite being such a good choice on multiple hulls?

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[Megas]

Heron's not forced into a high risk brawl by its ship system. It's fine.

Heron can be a dedicated high-cost wing platform. Or it can cheap out on wings but become a PD/zone control beam disco ball, especially since carrier officers really want that elite PD skill anyway. It doesn't have the mounts or ship system for brawling unless it's some temporary meme SO flagship setup.

I kinda got what Megas' gripes are in the Mora thread, though. Even now, Heron appears like it should be capable of more than just be a premium bomber platform with a side dish of support. It has an universal medium slot, but how often do you equip anything other than Pilums there, if anything at all?

I have mounted dual flak in an all-fighter-no-guns Heron.  That felt lame.  I guess that is okay if player wants three Tridents on it, but it should not feel like this if player wants only midgrade (8-10 OP) fighters on Heron.

As I wrote before, premium bombers seem to need skills to work.  If the player does not have the Leadership skills, bombers are generally not very effective, and they drain to 30% too fast.  That makes the bomber carrier without guns a stat-stick freighter before long.  Interceptor boats are better for unskilled no-Leadership characters (because they do not drain to 30% as quickly and do not waste as much OP on fighters).  It is annoying that if player does not take Leadership, he might as well not bother with (most) carriers.  It is similar to phase ships smaller than Ziggurat requiring elite Field Modulation to work if they want to brawl (because phase cooldown is too long otherwise).  Kind of wish there was a phase hullmod (or given to Phase Anchor) that sped up cooldown for those who cannot get Field Modulation or make Field Modulation elite (in case of officers).

And Heron can brawl somewhat... if it has enough OP to get the guns, flux, and ITU to do it.  Without s-mods, it does not.  Mora had the same problem too until it got its +10 OP buff.

"Disco ball" loadout is a potential brawler loadout, whether it is six LR PDs or four burst PD (both need about 30 OP in the small mounts, and that does not include Advanced Optics).  Even the beams need OP.  After that, give it a 10+ OP gun in the universal and ITU, then two Broadswords and a Talon for fighters, and Heron only has about 10 OP left for flux (caps or vents).  The only way no s-mod Heron can pass a battlecarrier is to use low-grade equipment somewhere, probably all Talons for fighters.  Current Mora with +10 OP buff does not need to skimp on equipment like this (but it did have to before the +10 OP buff).

When Heron first appeared, it was practically a Fury (with machine gun drone system instead of mobility boost).  It worked with Heavy Blaster or Heavy Mauler in the universal, and few burst PD to pick off missiles or frigates.  (Fighters were treated as ships, not weapons, back then.)  It was great.  I want that kind of battlecarrier Heron back.

I guess an alternative fix for Heron is instead of more OP, change its energy mounts to hybrids so that it can use effective low OP weapons, namely Light Mortars (2 OP) and Light Autocannons (4 OP).  Currently, with only energy mounts, Heron needs at least 5 OP per small mount for IR PL or LR PD.

I want Heron to be a reliable fighter platform, like a bigger Drover, or faster Mora.  I do not want to use it as a bomber platform.

Astral is annoying that it is sort of pigeonholed into bomber platform.  I wished there was a capital-sized carrier that was focused on interceptors (but that probably will not happen at this point).  AI Astral is unsuitable for interceptors (player controlled might make it work), and Legion is too unfocused.

Heron might be my personal favorite hull, but I gotta admit it has an identity crisis, now that I think of it. It's just that unlike Eagle, Heron has a niche it excels at. The point is, is this a healthy state for the Heron to be in? Isn't its current state actually toxic to the potential build variety Heron could have?

It is annoying at least.  If I cannot use bomber loadout well because I do not have carrier skills, and most enemies I fight now are small and fast pirates or the like, then I need to burn in s-mods for Heron to do what Mora can do without s-mods.  Especially annoying if I find Heron before other carriers.

[BigBrainEnergy]

As I wrote before, premium bombers seem to need skills to work.  If the player does not have the Leadership skills, bombers are generally not very effective, and they drain to 30% too fast.

Maybe this would be less of an issue if the drain on replacement rate wasn't directly tied to replacement time. Longer replacement times are deceptively punishing because not only does it take longer to replace it also drains more replacement rate, so wings that replace faster can recover the lost rate before dying again while wings with longer replacement rates can't which then makes it take even more time to replace which also causes it to drain more replacement rate. So wings with short replacement times are universally useful but the ones with longer replacement times need carrier group to prevent the downward spiral in replacement rate.

[Megas]

I tried Expanded Deck Crew, but it alone was not enough to help slow down drain enough.  All it did was take enough OP away from Mora and Legion from being a useful battlecarrier, and simply prevented Heron from trying to be a battlecarrier at all.

Without Carrier Group, player is better off bringing a missileship (or warship with enough missile mounts) with Exp. Missile Racks instead of a bomber carrier, even something like Dominator/Onslaught, let alone Conquest or Gryphon, and pretend Harpoons or MIRVs are your bombers.  Or if missiles do not feel appropriate enough, maybe bring a Doom and abuse Mine Strike.

Interceptors are mildly useful for distracting ships, or just killing them if the enemy is small enough, while the carrier pounds on the enemy.  Helps that interceptors are a way to counter the cowardly enemies (small ships) that refuse to engage.

P.S.  When Perditions were restored to their old three wing selves, I was eager to try them, but the bombs were slow and unled.  They were deadly with older skills, but without the skills, enemies had no trouble dodging hammers.  If I wanted to use bombers with unskilled character against most targets, I probably need something with homing missiles like Daggers, but they are so expensive that battlecarrier is not an option, and such bombers drain to 30% fast enough that I was better off with Harpoon/MIRV spam from Dominator/Gryphon/Onslaught/Conquest.

P.P.S.  I guess another way to buff would-be battlecarrier Heron would be to make ITU built-in (although +15 OP is a bit much, more than what Mora got).  Not totally inappropriate since it has Targeting Feed system.  Doing this would not give more OP for bigger bombers or survival hullmods to unarmed bomber Herons, but it would help relieve OP shortage for battlecarrier Heron.

Another problem with low OP is Neural Link.  Few times, I considered Neural Linking carriers, but carriers generally cannot afford the OP tax Neural Interface requires.  Really hurts with Astral if player wants to exploit the Neural Reset to speed up Recall Device recharge.