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Author Topic: Hostile Activity  (Read 13637 times)

Schwartz

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Re: Hostile Activity
« Reply #60 on: September 03, 2022, 10:50:08 PM »

Purely from a fun standpoint, it's always more fun for me to have rare but threatening events rather than having their frequency increase, for example when I have a bunch of colonies that require babysitting. There could be cases of pirate activity being coordinated by the same group of misfits so that effective counters also have an impact beyond a single system.

Yeah, it's odd that Pathers and Pirates are lumped together now. Terrorism is a fun idea that could be very different from trading lane and colony raids. Maybe an opportunity for the player to sink some of his cash flow into; paying informants, uprooting spies and keeping the colony safe with higher safety expenditures. This could help reduce the runaway income of the late game colony stage, esp. with players who do use AI cores liberally and generate the most cash.
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smithney

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Re: Hostile Activity
« Reply #61 on: September 04, 2022, 01:29:59 AM »

Yeah, it's odd that Pathers and Pirates are lumped together now. Terrorism is a fun idea that could be very different from trading lane and colony raids. Maybe an opportunity for the player to sink some of his cash flow into; paying informants, uprooting spies and keeping the colony safe with higher safety expenditures. This could help reduce the runaway income of the late game colony stage, esp. with players who do use AI cores liberally and generate the most cash.
I'd disagree. If anything, threats to society tend to have a compound effect even in real life. It makes sense from a QoL viewpoint to have only a single tracker as Alex wrote. It also makes sense that internal security takes care of all threats regardless of their origin, even if methods of dealing with each differ case to case. I agree that the mechanic sounds like a fantastic potential lever to curb the runaway economy. At the same time, I'd dislike being overwhelmed by colony micromanagement unless I was actually asking for it.
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FreonRu

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Re: Hostile Activity
« Reply #62 on: September 04, 2022, 01:56:28 AM »

One more question.
If you improve relations with pirates and Luddics (well, for example, by trading or research tasks), will the raids continue? Or after the relationship becomes friendly, then there will be no attacks?
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Schwartz

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Re: Hostile Activity
« Reply #63 on: September 04, 2022, 12:55:41 PM »

Methods, goals, threats are just vastly different. Pirates send raiding fleets, Pathers have sleeper terrorist cells. You don't fix both the same way. One is an issue of spy agencies, the other of military presence. Or more broadly, one is an issue of planetside security, the other of space superiority. Highlighting these differences to add variety is one way to go, merging everything into a single threat-o-meter is another. It depends on what that actually means and how we're dealing with it.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2022, 01:00:47 PM by Schwartz »
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SafariJohn

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Re: Hostile Activity
« Reply #64 on: September 04, 2022, 01:09:57 PM »

Comparison:

Pirates:
- inflict negative market condition you can't get rid of
- operate from a space station in a different system
- spawn small raider fleets around your system
- send large raids
- cause industry disruptions if raid is successful


Pathers
- inflict negative market condition you can get rid of (by not using cores)
- operate from a space station in a different system
- spawn small raider fleets around your system
- send smugglers
- cause industry disruptions if smugglers are successful


There are a lot of similarities. I can see why Alex wants to merge them into one system.
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Schwartz

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Re: Hostile Activity
« Reply #65 on: September 04, 2022, 01:17:03 PM »

Ah right, I forgot about the smuggler part. In an earlier game I actually sat around the hyperspace point to my colony and interrogated approaching smugglers, that was fun. There's right now no clear indication that we should do anything hands-on about the Pathers except find and destroy their bases. The terrorist cells are a "danger" icon in the colonies and they lead the player (at least me) to believe that the terrorist cell is the actual threat, and logistical support just the means by which the switch gets flicked once in a while.

But yes you're right. If that remains the only means for Pathers to go active, having them dealt with the same way is reasonable. I was thinking of how to actually handle terrorists planetside, as that would be a reasonable goal if we actually want to make our colonies safer.
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Alex

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Re: Hostile Activity
« Reply #66 on: September 04, 2022, 01:29:34 PM »

But I still have a couple of questions:
1 I really like to create colonies in one system so that patrol fleets help each other. How will this new system work in such a case? Will the threat affect all colonies in the system at once?

Yes. So it's a bit worse at lower levels of threat - all of your colonies will be affected, rather than just one in the most-threatened system. It would still help in the event of a pirate raid, though.

The coming update just crossed the threshold where it is so much more awesome than the current release that I can't play the current release anymore.

Hahah! Sorry :)


It is like there is an additonal (hidden) money cost (beyond commodity drain) to use stockpiles to fix a shortage.

It's detailed in several of the relevant tooltips!


That said, unless I'm wrong, the only tracker available for the player to overview will be the Hostile Activity, which is meant to facilitate player choice. I'm looking forward to experience the ways you decided to employ the track mechanic, overtly or not :P

At the moment, but I'd imagine there will be more! Just... hopefully not like, 20 more - at least, not all at the same time :)

Regarding the 'Player Choices' paragraphs, I'm getting "iron triangle" vibes from the way you described them (i.e. causal X frequent X intermittent solution). I'm just afraid players might force themselves into the causal approach if it feels like it's the "correct" one. Also, I feel like I personally would quickly get tired of the causal one if it leans too heavily on narrative. Thinking of the more narrative-leaning Sebastyen repeat missions as an example.

Ah, interesting - not familiar with the iron triangle idea. But yeah, I get what you're saying re: resolving it; I think some players will probably feel the need to address the causes. They're not too heavily narrative, btw - it's a cool kind of story thing, but it's not something where you need to run around a whole lot, and at least some of them involve some sort of challenge.

Regarding different types of hostile activity, I think Hegemony and the Diktat are both poised for being represented by it in some way. I'm not sure how and if it would suit the League and the Church as well, at this point I'm thinking that not all factions would resort primarily to combat to resolve their issues.

Yeah, a bunch of stuff to consider there; I hear what you're saying.


Purely from a fun standpoint, it's always more fun for me to have rare but threatening events rather than having their frequency increase, for example when I have a bunch of colonies that require babysitting. There could be cases of pirate activity being coordinated by the same group of misfits so that effective counters also have an impact beyond a single system.

Yep, that makes sense.

One more question.
If you improve relations with pirates and Luddics (well, for example, by trading or research tasks), will the raids continue? Or after the relationship becomes friendly, then there will be no attacks?

The Path currently doesn't send raids. And... some of the resolutions for pirate activity involve improving your relationship with pirates, but not in the "make the relationship bar go up" way.


Methods, goals, threats are just vastly different. Pirates send raiding fleets, Pathers have sleeper terrorist cells. You don't fix both the same way. One is an issue of spy agencies, the other of military presence. Or more broadly, one is an issue of planetside security, the other of space superiority. Highlighting these differences to add variety is one way to go, merging everything into a single threat-o-meter is another. It depends on what that actually means and how we're dealing with it.

That makes sense. The main thing is that a lot of the fun gameplay involves space superiority - i.e. actually fighting stuff. So countering things is naturally going to lean in that direction. There's just less fun to be had in "planetside security" - what does that become, making a building/paying some credits? Which, I mean, can be fine at times! But there's all these Luddic Path ships, and fighting more of them and a few less pirates is good for variety. Basically, it's an excuse to blow up some Pather ships; if it gets a bit thin, ah, well!

(And btw, the Pather Sabotage outcome makes it clear that one way to avert it is to deal with the base that's supporting the cells on your colony.)
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BigBrainEnergy

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Re: Hostile Activity
« Reply #67 on: September 05, 2022, 08:12:36 AM »

It'd be cool to see this system represent inter-faction hostilities. Obviously you don't wanna go overboard with events, but I think it can be covered with just two: one for hostility to the player, and one for war between all the factions.

You could use the current relationship system as the tool for filling up the "war" meter, so for each faction that has a hostile relationship with another it fills up the war event bar every month. This could eventually culminate in a war that engulfs the sector, with smaller skirmishes at lower levels. You would then have the option of causing trouble (false flag operations maybe?) if you want war, or mending the relationships between factions if you want peace.

The player one would fill up based on the number of factions that have a negative relationship with you (as well as some other market factors), and when it fills all the way up one of those factions sends an expedition at you.
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Jackundor

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Re: Hostile Activity
« Reply #68 on: September 05, 2022, 11:13:03 PM »


Yeah, I get that. This is part of a general set of changes that should encourage spreading colonies around (in fact, working on another thing that contributes here) and I also have some notes on removing/mitigating current factors that encourage just-one-system; punitive expeditions feature in those. A bit outside the scope for this blog post, though.

hm, idk about this... i kinda would just not colonize if it was suboptimal to have all my colonies in one system, but i also don't get more than 2-3 colonies...
How would this affect things, would it encourage systems with just one colony or would it encourage having only a few colonies in a system instead of colonizing every single planet or what?
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smithney

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Re: Hostile Activity
« Reply #69 on: September 05, 2022, 11:51:41 PM »

Regarding the 'Player Choices' paragraphs, I'm getting "iron triangle" vibes from the way you described them (i.e. causal X frequent X intermittent solution).

Ah, interesting - not familiar with the iron triangle idea.
Oh wow, that's not what I expected to hear from you :D I'm sure you just know it by a different name. But anyway, what I'm talking about is the "iron triangle" of project management: when balancing costs, speed and quality, at best one can usually secure two of these parameters, but almost never all three of them (e.g. you can have a well-built house made quickly, but it's likely gonna cost you a fortune).

In Hostile Activity's case, the triangle might look like interaction, combat and longevity of the solution: Don't wanna fight? - Gotta interact with the threats often, if not lethally (trade? missions? securing merc contracts?); Solving stuff isn't your cup of tea? - Sure, I just hope you really like fighting, 'cause you're in for a lot (variable fights? variable locations? variable circumstances?); Wanna deal with the threats as little as possible? - Make sure to get to the core of the problem and strike where it hurts the most (investigation? securing allies? -> showdown?).

Also, I feel like I personally would quickly get tired of the causal one if it leans too heavily on narrative. Thinking of the more narrative-leaning Sebastyen repeat missions as an example.

They're not too heavily narrative, btw - it's a cool kind of story thing, but it's not something where you need to run around a whole lot, and at least some of them involve some sort of challenge.
Cool :D Love to hear that.

That said, unless I'm wrong, the only tracker available for the player to overview will be the Hostile Activity,

At the moment, but I'd imagine there will be more! Just... hopefully not like, 20 more - at least, not all at the same time :)
Another thing I wasn't expecting to hear. But I'm confident you will know when it's going to be worth it. At worst, the community will let you know ^^

Anyway thanks for the response!
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Sussy AI Core

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Re: Hostile Activity
« Reply #70 on: September 06, 2022, 08:57:46 AM »

Looks very interesting! I like the idea of Tri-Tachyon in particular taking offense to my market share, seeing as they're a corporation.

Speaking of combat around planets, a bit of a pet peeve of mine is how lightly defended some of the major Core World systems seem to be. I would expect there to be fleets of capital ships patrolling around the Aztlan system, because it's the main system of the sector's dominant power. I'm fine with systems like Mayasura or Yma being lightly defended, but I think that Aztlan, Hybrasil, and maybe Samarra and Thule should be swarming with warfleets and should basically be immune to pirate raids. Askonia is actually in a good place in regards to defenses, in my opinion.

Anyways I always like reading your updates!
« Last Edit: September 06, 2022, 08:59:33 AM by Sussy AI Core »
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Sly

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Re: Hostile Activity
« Reply #71 on: September 06, 2022, 05:29:59 PM »

It's great that "Hostile Activities" are tracked through a report that's easily glanced through and dismissed, but I find it leaves something missing.

At the level of large interstellar business and/or empire, you would expect to have at least an adjutant with their own subordinates who handle the affairs of your organization - like your bridge officers, except on a larger scale. Ideally, a competent leader would manage those subordinates themselves, providing some much-needed flavor.

A human (or human-adjacent) theater makes a big difference, like a Commander Hayes, or the talking heads from Sim City 2. In fact, every instance of "SC 2" I can think of had talking heads that managed organizational affairs, and the benefit to the perspective of the player was significant, at the very least.

Food for thought.
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SonnaBanana

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Re: Hostile Activity
« Reply #72 on: September 07, 2022, 01:30:44 AM »

Have there been changes to skills and industries to accommodate the new system?
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Alex

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Re: Hostile Activity
« Reply #73 on: September 07, 2022, 08:42:02 AM »

It'd be cool to see this system represent inter-faction hostilities. Obviously you don't wanna go overboard with events, but I think it can be covered with just two: one for hostility to the player, and one for war between all the factions.

You could use the current relationship system as the tool for filling up the "war" meter, so for each faction that has a hostile relationship with another it fills up the war event bar every month. This could eventually culminate in a war that engulfs the sector, with smaller skirmishes at lower levels. You would then have the option of causing trouble (false flag operations maybe?) if you want war, or mending the relationships between factions if you want peace.

The player one would fill up based on the number of factions that have a negative relationship with you (as well as some other market factors), and when it fills all the way up one of those factions sends an expedition at you.

Yep, that sort of thing could definitely work, and combining it into a single bar (rather than per-faction-pairing) seems like it'd be a good idea. Same general comment re: trying to be judicious about where to actually employ this, but also appreciating the ideas -  it's interesting to think about, and it definitely needs it, too!


hm, idk about this... i kinda would just not colonize if it was suboptimal to have all my colonies in one system, but i also don't get more than 2-3 colonies...

That just depends on what the incentives are, doesn't it? Unless you just feel strongly RP-wise about having all your stuff in one system.

How would this affect things, would it encourage systems with just one colony or would it encourage having only a few colonies in a system instead of colonizing every single planet or what?

It's less about that and more about there being some benefits to having a colony in the area, which would encourage you to have colonies spread around at convenient locations. It's about making the "where" matter a bit more.

Oh wow, that's not what I expected to hear from you :D I'm sure you just know it by a different name. But anyway, what I'm talking about is the "iron triangle" of project management: when balancing costs, speed and quality, at best one can usually secure two of these parameters, but almost never all three of them (e.g. you can have a well-built house made quickly, but it's likely gonna cost you a fortune).

Ah yeah! I just know it as "fast, cheap, good, pick two" - didn't know it had an official name :)

In Hostile Activity's case, the triangle might look like interaction, combat and longevity of the solution: Don't wanna fight? - Gotta interact with the threats often, if not lethally (trade? missions? securing merc contracts?); Solving stuff isn't your cup of tea? - Sure, I just hope you really like fighting, 'cause you're in for a lot (variable fights? variable locations? variable circumstances?); Wanna deal with the threats as little as possible? - Make sure to get to the core of the problem and strike where it hurts the most (investigation? securing allies? -> showdown?).

Hmm - I want to say this is just "three different routes to take" and not some kind of zero-sum problem. I mean, the routes are mutually exclusive to a fair degree, but still.


Looks very interesting! I like the idea of Tri-Tachyon in particular taking offense to my market share, seeing as they're a corporation.

That would very much be their thing, wouldn't it :)

Speaking of combat around planets, a bit of a pet peeve of mine is how lightly defended some of the major Core World systems seem to be. I would expect there to be fleets of capital ships patrolling around the Aztlan system, because it's the main system of the sector's dominant power. I'm fine with systems like Mayasura or Yma being lightly defended, but I think that Aztlan, Hybrasil, and maybe Samarra and Thule should be swarming with warfleets and should basically be immune to pirate raids. Askonia is actually in a good place in regards to defenses, in my opinion.

Hmm, possibly? Honestly it's not really something I've looked at or thought much about in a long time. "What happens when the player goes to war against a major faction" hasn't been a focus.

Anyways I always like reading your updates!

Thank you!


It's great that "Hostile Activities" are tracked through a report that's easily glanced through and dismissed, but I find it leaves something missing.

At the level of large interstellar business and/or empire, you would expect to have at least an adjutant with their own subordinates who handle the affairs of your organization - like your bridge officers, except on a larger scale. Ideally, a competent leader would manage those subordinates themselves, providing some much-needed flavor.

A human (or human-adjacent) theater makes a big difference, like a Commander Hayes, or the talking heads from Sim City 2. In fact, every instance of "SC 2" I can think of had talking heads that managed organizational affairs, and the benefit to the perspective of the player was significant, at the very least.

Food for thought.

I've definitely thought about it! For better or worse, this just isn't the route the game has taken, and I don't want to try to just shoehorn it in somewhere. I mean, conceptually those subordinates are obviously there, given how the game *is*, I don't think sticking a portrait somewhere would do the job. It makes more sense - or at least seems accomplished more easily - in a game where there's a bunch of things that happen where you get interrupted by modal notifications and it's "ah, this person is letting me know about this" and it builds them up as a person in your mind. In Starsector, I try to avoid stuff that interrupts the game and requires a response/acknowledgement, and it makes this less of a natural fit. Still possible, if it was a core design element, but it isn't!


Have there been changes to skills and industries to accommodate the new system?

Skills, why? Industries, per the post, Commerce has been changed to interact with HA in a hopefully interesting way :)
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Brainwright

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Re: Hostile Activity
« Reply #74 on: September 07, 2022, 10:22:15 AM »

It'd be cool to see this system represent inter-faction hostilities. Obviously you don't wanna go overboard with events, but I think it can be covered with just two: one for hostility to the player, and one for war between all the factions.

You could use the current relationship system as the tool for filling up the "war" meter, so for each faction that has a hostile relationship with another it fills up the war event bar every month. This could eventually culminate in a war that engulfs the sector, with smaller skirmishes at lower levels. You would then have the option of causing trouble (false flag operations maybe?) if you want war, or mending the relationships between factions if you want peace.

The player one would fill up based on the number of factions that have a negative relationship with you (as well as some other market factors), and when it fills all the way up one of those factions sends an expedition at you.

Yep, that sort of thing could definitely work, and combining it into a single bar (rather than per-faction-pairing) seems like it'd be a good idea. Same general comment re: trying to be judicious about where to actually employ this, but also appreciating the ideas -  it's interesting to think about, and it definitely needs it, too!

Yeah, one example from a popular mod is Nexelerin's constantly shifting alignment and attacks.  It would be easy to plot several events of this system onto a bar ranging from saturation bombardment, raids, and invasions to events like open trade and alliances.  You then just look at each event, and it displays what factions are engaged in the listed event.  So you can see who's launching raids, who is getting close to alliance, and what invasions are going on without navigating through the Intel interface.  Seriously, Intel gets hard when items constantly disappear and nothing is organized alphabetically.

Naturally, you can have any number of arcane counters running under the hood besides raw faction relation, such as prosperity and war weariness, to determine where each faction is on this scale.  The system is just a great way of navigating all the consequences without several separate menus to look through.

It's great that "Hostile Activities" are tracked through a report that's easily glanced through and dismissed, but I find it leaves something missing.

At the level of large interstellar business and/or empire, you would expect to have at least an adjutant with their own subordinates who handle the affairs of your organization - like your bridge officers, except on a larger scale. Ideally, a competent leader would manage those subordinates themselves, providing some much-needed flavor.

A human (or human-adjacent) theater makes a big difference, like a Commander Hayes, or the talking heads from Sim City 2. In fact, every instance of "SC 2" I can think of had talking heads that managed organizational affairs, and the benefit to the perspective of the player was significant, at the very least.

Food for thought.

I've definitely thought about it! For better or worse, this just isn't the route the game has taken, and I don't want to try to just shoehorn it in somewhere. I mean, conceptually those subordinates are obviously there, given how the game *is*, I don't think sticking a portrait somewhere would do the job. It makes more sense - or at least seems accomplished more easily - in a game where there's a bunch of things that happen where you get interrupted by modal notifications and it's "ah, this person is letting me know about this" and it builds them up as a person in your mind. In Starsector, I try to avoid stuff that interrupts the game and requires a response/acknowledgement, and it makes this less of a natural fit. Still possible, if it was a core design element, but it isn't!

I've often thought it would be pretty cool if the Character menu was replaced by a Crew menu, representing the disposition of your fleet.  Instead of the main character having all the skills, you bring together several hires, either as ship officers or some other more civilian mode, and promote them to a position using story points.  Like you can have a captain of a ship and his executive officer, and they each have three skills.  The ship goes into combat with all three of the captain's skills, plus his one elite, and two of the XO's skills (poor sod can't get an elite skill until he's promoted!).

And then you have your quartermaster and head engineer for all the Industry skills and some of what are skills now can be built onto specific ships (like Phase Fleet) in such a way that combat can damage the work, forcing you to rebuild.  Naturally, that wouldn't work with the way things are now.  Largely replacing character points with story points to change the construction and operation of your fleet.

Just a thought.
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