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Starsector 0.98a is out! (03/27/25)

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Author Topic: Hostile Activity  (Read 37330 times)

SafariJohn

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Re: Hostile Activity
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2022, 11:30:25 AM »

Quote
there’s a further event stage – at around the halfway mark – where “increased defenses” further slow event progress.

This is a clever use of the system.
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Jackundor

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Re: Hostile Activity
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2022, 11:34:37 AM »


i think i'd kinda want to see faction hostilities reworked into these events too, but with the possibility to fizzle out naturally... or bc of player actions. Something where conflicts start as small skirmishes, escalates into some light raiding and then can build to a major raid, fizzle out, or just keep smoldering... either through "natural causes" or bc the player decided to steer the conflict one way or another

Current faction hostilities are just mostly nothing unless the factions share a system

Hmm, possibly? Though I'm not immediately seeing how a web of faction relationships/hostilities would get mapped onto an event progress bar.


hmm, i hadn't even though of non-hostile relationships factoring into it, although it probably makes more sense. Well, hopefully you'llget some useful ideas that you can turn into content out of this train of thought.

i'd particulary like something that increases the amount and variety of inter faction combat, and thus the amount an variety of combat encounters the player can engage in. Plus some non combat interactions that could be enabled, like engaging in war profiteering or trying to avert a conflict to protect your financial interests (though that woukd maybe require being hostile with a faction to be a bigger deal that affects trade and marketshare more)
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Alex

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Re: Hostile Activity
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2022, 11:43:38 AM »

This is an upgrade over the current "you just get attacked lmao" system, but at the same time I can't say it has bothered me much anyway.

Yeah, that's not the major reason for doing this, though I think it's interesting design-wise. The bigger things are adding a bunch of interaction/content to resolving the causes (which I don't want to dig into because spoilers), and making it easy to extend with other types of activity (for which I have some specific ideas, but don't want to get into because too much of it is up in the air, including whether it makes it into the next update).

"Does this unit have a soul?"

"Yes 03, we all have souls. You ask me every Monday morning..."

(I did not understand that reference.)


I missed this - I'm a big enough fan of this kind of approach to industries to make a separate post about it. Currently, almost all industries are about making money and >only< about making money - save for Heavy Industry, which you want to get and upgrade perhaps sooner than other industries, because it doesn't just earn you money, it makes ships and weapons and fighters you can have way more fun with, than just money! I know it's unreasonable to expect all the industries to have the same impact as Heavy Industry, but something will definitely be better than nothing.

I'll just say, we're very much on the same page here.


This is looking absolutely great - I'm looking forward to the way this is going to play out in the vanilla game, let alone that I'm slightly giddy at how much work it's going to save me on the backend with my planned mod content.

I'm also really looking forward to seeing what sorts of rich midgame content this can add - it seems like this is going to make the stretch of the game between establishing your first colony and hitting a big endgame fleet and a secure colony or group of colonies, really satisfying and challenging.

Thank you! Working on something that probably qualifies as midgame content as we speak, actually :)

Quote
there’s a further event stage – at around the halfway mark – where “increased defenses” further slow event progress.

This is a clever use of the system.

:D

i'd particulary like something that increases the amount and variety of inter faction combat, and thus the amount an variety of combat encounters the player can engage in. Plus some non combat interactions that could be enabled, like engaging in war profiteering or trying to avert a conflict to protect your financial interests (though that woukd maybe require being hostile with a faction to be a bigger deal that affects trade and marketshare more)

Yep, I hear you, that all makes a lot of sense.
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AcaMetis

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Re: Hostile Activity
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2022, 11:47:17 AM »

Definitely looks like an interesting system. My only question is how many knobs/buttons it has in the settings.json, say if I wanted to make Military Bases matter more or less. How easy would it be to do that (given that my modding skills...well, put politely "don't exist" ::))?
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braciszek

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Re: Hostile Activity
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2022, 11:48:58 AM »

This makes me more suspicious about the possible implementation of content from a certain faction file, especially if we starting to talk about the endgame...

Are we getting closer to the implementation of function for the mysterious Orders tab?

[attachment deleted by admin]
« Last Edit: September 01, 2022, 11:51:05 AM by braciszek »
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Wyvern

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Re: Hostile Activity
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2022, 11:59:02 AM »

Oh, this is interesting, yes!

...But also kindof weird. Pirate and Pather activity is all lumped together now? I can get Pather sabotage because I let a Pirate base operate for too long rather than because I'm using too many AI cores and domain artifacts? What happens when someone tries to mod in Remnant raids due to AI core use, or some other faction's raids due to specific mod-added industry items - how does that interact with the current possibilities?

I will note, though, that - at least for me - the current game has a very very strong impetus towards putting all of my colonies in a single star system (that has a gate*). The changes you've outlined here help mitigate some of that... but without faction expeditions and hegemony inspections getting similar treatment I'm still going to want to make sure that I have all of my proverbial eggs in a single convenient-to-reach-and-full-of-patrol-HQs basket.

____
* It's a bit tangential, but having the Hypershunt Tap (or even some new related item) create a connection to the gate network would be a really nice end-game option. I mean, the game lore outright tells us that the point of those things was to power the gates! Right now, a single extra industry on one planet is... not really worth the hassle. On the other hand, being able to connect your system to the gate network? That would open up a lot more freedom for the player in terms of having a convenient home base, being able to get back in time to deal with raids/expeditions... and make multi-system player factions a bit more practical with easy transit from one system to another.
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Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

Alex

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Re: Hostile Activity
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2022, 12:12:57 PM »

Definitely looks like an interesting system. My only question is how many knobs/buttons it has in the settings.json, say if I wanted to make Military Bases matter more or less. How easy would it be to do that (given that my modding skills...well, put politely "don't exist" ::))?

Some. For the values you're interested in, they're exposed as static variables in the HADefensiveMeasuresFactor class. Moddable with low modding skills, but not non-existent :)


Are we getting closer to the implementation of function for the mysterious Orders tab?

Hmm! (Getting closer, yes. Details still somewhat TBD, as is the actual "when".)


Oh, this is interesting, yes!

...But also kindof weird. Pirate and Pather activity is all lumped together now? I can get Pather sabotage because I let a Pirate base operate for too long rather than because I'm using too many AI cores and domain artifacts? What happens when someone tries to mod in Remnant raids due to AI core use, or some other faction's raids due to specific mod-added industry items - how does that interact with the current possibilities?

I think conceptually the way to look at it is that the different contributing factors all help create windows of opportunity for the other factors to exploit.

By "mod in", you mean as part of Hostile Acivity, right? If so, then that'd just be one more possible outcome that might get rolled when the randomized final stage gets rolled.


I will note, though, that - at least for me - the current game has a very very strong impetus towards putting all of my colonies in a single star system (that has a gate*). The changes you've outlined here help mitigate some of that... but without faction expeditions and hegemony inspections getting similar treatment I'm still going to want to make sure that I have all of my proverbial eggs in a single convenient-to-reach-and-full-of-patrol-HQs basket.

Yeah, I get that. This is part of a general set of changes that should encourage spreading colonies around (in fact, working on another thing that contributes here) and I also have some notes on removing/mitigating current factors that encourage just-one-system; punitive expeditions feature in those. A bit outside the scope for this blog post, though.


* It's a bit tangential, but having the Hypershunt Tap (or even some new related item) create a connection to the gate network would be a really nice end-game option. I mean, the game lore outright tells us that the point of those things was to power the gates! Right now, a single extra industry on one planet is... not really worth the hassle. On the other hand, being able to connect your system to the gate network? That would open up a lot more freedom for the player in terms of having a convenient home base, being able to get back in time to deal with raids/expeditions... and make multi-system player factions a bit more practical with easy transit from one system to another.

Thank you for the suggestion, noted!
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Twilight Sentinel

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Re: Hostile Activity
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2022, 12:41:12 PM »

It might be interesting to use this sort of thing for positive events too.  Just as hostile relations with major factions could lead to punitive expeditions or Letters of Marque being issued against your colonies, positive relations with major factions could lead to greater accessibility, joint patrol efforts, lucrative trade deals, and special quest opportunities based specifically on your colonies.  Perhaps you can also get positive opportunities simply from having very wealthy and high population colonies.

A simple example of this sort of thing could be a short quest chain for a player with the AI ship skill which allows them to start manufacturing relic ships for colony defense and fleet use.
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FooF

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Re: Hostile Activity
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2022, 01:12:43 PM »

Very cool!

While I get this system is still in its infancy, the possibilities it opens up is breathtaking. I think I’m more excited about what it could be than what it is but I really like the idea your decisions, or lack thereof, have lasting consequences or making progress on an “event.”

Endgame stuff can be built off this and I would love to see multiple, mutually competing, trees or tracks you could start going down once you hit a certain level of development. Gaining progress in one event stifles the progress in another, etc. but all lead to some major Sector-spanning event in one form or another. But as you describe the system as it is, there are milestones that would tell you that you’re getting close to points of no return or you’re about to trigger something that will permanently impact future events. This keeps a player sandboxing from unintentionally going off the deep end.

I am excited to see the new pirate/pather interactions and where they take me. This does feel like more mid-game content, which I’m glad for. I’m afraid that if system is well-received, you’ll have a lot of people asking for punitive expeditions to get the same treatment. I hope you’re not a victim of your own success in this!
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Hexxod

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Re: Hostile Activity
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2022, 01:20:02 PM »

Seems like a bit of a disconnect between threat and impact.

Each system has a low danger rating, but colony impact is considered to be extreme?

And why would every colony need to have heightened security to mitigate Luddic Path attacks, when they're only targeting one colony?
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Nick XR

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Re: Hostile Activity
« Reply #25 on: September 01, 2022, 01:34:44 PM »

Could this system also encompass the "expeditionary fleets" sent because of your market share?    Maybe stuff with AI core usage and [REDACTED]?

Hmmm, I guess I want to see this shiny new toy applied to many of encounters that result in someone wanting to do something to you.  This gives the player a greater feeling of agency, great work Alex.

Megas

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Re: Hostile Activity
« Reply #26 on: September 01, 2022, 02:00:10 PM »

I avoid Commerce because the -3 stability hurts too much just for +25% (or +50% income).  I rather build a different industry or even go +1 colony over the limit and eat a -2 mismanagement penalty instead of eating -3 stability.

But what I dislike most about stability penalty from Commerce is it harms the NPC core worlds that are incapable of defending themselves from pirates if the player does not help.

If bounties from Commerce boost indie rep like a normal system bounty, then this can be useful for fixing indie rep (either after sat bombing an enemy world and/or raiding New Maxios one too many times for blueprints).


As for colonies, I mostly agree with Wyvern, although I like to have two systems (both with gates) on opposite sides of the core worlds to mitigate fuel and supply consumption.  It gets annoying traveling three-fourths across the sector to complete a mission or farm the most convenient red system in the game for Ordos.
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Drazan

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Re: Hostile Activity
« Reply #27 on: September 01, 2022, 02:51:39 PM »

Love the new feature.
Dont like how panther and pirate is going to be boundled up into one. They should be separate somehow.
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Alex

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Re: Hostile Activity
« Reply #28 on: September 01, 2022, 03:39:35 PM »

It might be interesting to use this sort of thing for positive events too.

Oh, absolutely! In fact I'm right now working on an "Event" that has positive effects :) Game-changing, top-tier-skill-impact level ones, at that.


While I get this system is still in its infancy, the possibilities it opens up is breathtaking. I think I’m more excited about what it could be than what it is but I really like the idea your decisions, or lack thereof, have lasting consequences or making progress on an “event.”

Endgame stuff can be built off this and I would love to see multiple, mutually competing, trees or tracks you could start going down once you hit a certain level of development. Gaining progress in one event stifles the progress in another, etc. but all lead to some major Sector-spanning event in one form or another. But as you describe the system as it is, there are milestones that would tell you that you’re getting close to points of no return or you’re about to trigger something that will permanently impact future events. This keeps a player sandboxing from unintentionally going off the deep end.

We're definitely thinking along similar lines!

I am excited to see the new pirate/pather interactions and where they take me. This does feel like more mid-game content, which I’m glad for. I’m afraid that if system is well-received, you’ll have a lot of people asking for punitive expeditions to get the same treatment. I hope you’re not a victim of your own success in this!

Hahah! I think I have a note for punitive expeditions - something along the lines of "keep the ones that are for making a colony in faction space, roll the other ones into HA" but we'll see. And I've written up what a Hegemony AI Inspection might look like as an event. No promises, though, it's very much a "we'll see". I'm aware of the impulse to re-do things in the shiny new way and want to make sure there are actually *good reasons* for it!

Could this system also encompass the "expeditionary fleets" sent because of your market share?    Maybe stuff with AI core usage and [REDACTED]?

Hmmm, I guess I want to see this shiny new toy applied to many of encounters that result in someone wanting to do something to you.  This gives the player a greater feeling of agency, great work Alex.

(Hahah! Wrote up the answer just above before reading this, and I think it touches on a lot of the same things.)

Seems like a bit of a disconnect between threat and impact.

Each system has a low danger rating, but colony impact is considered to be extreme?

Correct! They're intentionally fairly decoupled. Colony impact is more of a function of how long hostile activity has been neglected for, though it will tick up faster if there's more danger.

And why would every colony need to have heightened security to mitigate Luddic Path attacks, when they're only targeting one colony?

Probably because at that point - if it's gone unchecked long enough - their activity covers more than just one colony, if there's only one that has proper "cells". Or it might represent support your other colonies need to provide. Or additional security they need to perform on traffic to/from the targeted colony. Or whatever. It's pretty easy to come up with in-fiction justifications for it; the whole thing is fairly abstract.


Love the new feature.

Thank you!

Dont like how panther and pirate is going to be boundled up into one. They should be separate somehow.

They were already "bundled into one" in the sense they that impacted your colonies. Now, instead of "affecting your colonies negatively, but separately and with bespoke and hard to balance/etc effects" they just "fill up a bar that affects your colonies negatively". But the important things that made them distinct - fleets, raids/sabotage/etc - are still distinct. It's also organized in a way that makes it easier (i.e. readily possible) to add more stuff than just Pathers and pirates.
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Juanajones

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Re: Hostile Activity
« Reply #29 on: September 01, 2022, 04:46:15 PM »

Great feature, good work Alex  ;D

As some others have said, excited to give Commerce a proper spin too.
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