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Author Topic: Vanilla Balance Tweaks  (Read 840 times)

FooF

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Vanilla Balance Tweaks
« on: August 10, 2022, 05:11:47 PM »

One of the great things about SS is the ability to just tweak stuff on your own. I've been experimenting with a kind of "vanilla balance mod" for a little bit and thought I'd share some of the small tweaks to the game I've made that may be fodder for balance discussions proper.

Weapon Changes

Phase Lance: Increased range to 700.

The Pulse Laser and Phase Lance are sort of two sides of the same coin: one deals hard flux but little true damage while the other deals strong armor damage but no hard flux. Both are decent against strike craft, both are 600 range, both are 10 OP, and both are relatively close in terms of flux use. Whereas the Pulse Laser is a true generalist, the Phase Lance often wastes its shots on fighters or on shields. I wouldn't call it "weak" in a vacuum but its upside isn't nearly as pronounced as say, the Ion Pulser, which is only 1 OP more.  So, I gave it more range. Since it doesn't deal hard flux, I felt that the range increase doesn't benefit it nearly as much as it would a Pulse Laser and its penchant for hitting shields also kind of reduces the overall effectiveness. However, the extra range gives Medium Energy, as a whole, a bit more "bite" and allows Phase Lances to shine a little brighter among its brethren (without having to spend OP on Advanced Optics).

In playtesting, I've found the added range really helps Midline ships like the Eagle. Yes, Phase Lances get "wasted" in the opening volley (as they tend to outrange their other Energy counterparts) but it also means that as energy ships try to back off, the Phase Lances are also get opportunistic hits as shields drop.

Burst Laser and Heavy Burst Laser: Increased maximum charges to 5 and 9, respectively.

I just don't think Burst Lasers are worth the OP cost as they stand and though I'd like to try something more exotic with the HBL (allow it to target 3 targets independently at once), I wanted to keep these changes to just value tweaks. Giving them more charges allows them deal with saturation better and makes them slightly better at engaging larger targets without making their sustained damage any better.

Heavy Mortar: Increased damage/shot to 220 and flux/shot to 180. Reduced rate of fire to 1/sec. Reduced recoil 25%. Same DPS and flux/efficiency as before.

Why would I ever change the ever-reliable Heavy Mortar? Well, to make room for the Assault Chaingun change below. The two would hold roughly similar roles so I made the Heavy Mortar harder-hitting but slower firing. Because it's not spewing rounds all over the place, I made it slightly more accurate. It acts more like an HE Arbalest now. I wanted to keep the 2-round burst but it felt like the delay between bursts were painfully long. As an HE weapon, it's technically better due to greater damage/shot but it still misses and you're rarely going to get multiple rounds on the same patch of armor. I intended this to be a side-grade rather than a buff/nerf.

Assault Chaingun Completely reworked. Range now 800. Damage/shot and flux/shot is 120. 180 rounds/minute. 360 DPS total. Decreased maximum recoil but otherwise inaccurate at range.

Yes, this is now the mythical 800-range, 10 OP Medium HE option (at the expense of a short-ranged buzzsaw that needed more damage/shot). Honestly, I felt the ACG could fulfill both roles. At range, you're throwing flux away because you're inaccurate but up-close, it can do some real damage. The other factor to consider is that it's an expensive weapon to fire regardless of what you do. It might be a good overall HE option but good luck getting it to fit your flux budget. 

In playtesting, I found I was treating it like a Heavy Blaster rather than a general-purpose weapon. Load up on Small Kinetics and let a single ACG do the heavy lifting. Hammerheads with an ACG and Heavy AC combo punched themselves out pretty quickly if you let the go full bore. A single one on an Enforcer was usually enough. Cruisers like the Eradicator and Eagle saw good use out of them and Capitals loved them. If you could afford to fire it, it was almost a Large Ballistic in a Medium slot (again, Heavy Blaster-esque)

Hephaestus Assault Gun: Upped damage/shot and flux/shot to 240. Halved firing rate (120/min now). DPS/flux stay the same.

Another domino effect of the ACG change. The ACG was now basically a slightly less efficient Medium HAG so the HAG needed to side-grade a little too. Same thing as the Heavy Mortar: double the damage, half the shots. It has better armor-penetrating properties but is also a little less of a generalist weapon. What it really competes with now is the Heavy Mauler as they do about the same damage/shot. Heavy Mauler front-loads its damage as much more accurate, though, so I didn't feel the overlap quite as much.

Fighter Changes

Trident: Increased wing size to 3 (from 2)

This is a 50% buff, I know. However, I didn't feel the Dagger vs. Trident comparison was close at all due to the Trident's extra 7 OP cost and the fact it's slow as molasses. If you can afford one of these wings, you're getting the premiere bomber platform but they also have their drawbacks beyond cost. Also, it's name is "Trident" which brings to mind a 3-pronged weapon, not a 2-pronged one!

Wasp: Decreased replacement time to 2 (from 5).

These should be true swarmers and what they lack in firepower and overall usefulness, they make up in sheer quantity. Even at low carrier replacement levels, these things should be popping out and easily replaceable.

Hull Changes

Eagle: Increased top speed to 75.

See the Eagle thread if you want to know more. I think Speed is what the Eagle needs most of. Paired with some of the Weapon changes, it's more of an assault ship, I feel.

Aurora: Changed shield to a 360 degree Front shield with half current upkeep.

I removed the "Front Shield Conversion Tax". More of a personal preference than a necessary balance change. I think this also gives the Aurora a bit of a mystique to it and a slight advantage over the Fury in terms of it being the premier High Tech Cruiser. The Aurora's shield might not be as efficient taking damage but it is super-efficient in terms of upkeep cost and 360 degree defense, "as standard!!!"

Legion: Added 30 OP.

See the Legion thread. Basically, the Legion is OP-starved relative to the Onslaught though it costs the same logistically. I didn't want to go overboard with it but it allows for an extra hull mod or two.

« Last Edit: August 10, 2022, 07:48:16 PM by FooF »
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BigBrainEnergy

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Re: FooF's Vanilla Balance Tweaks
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2022, 05:38:16 PM »

I think you are missing something with tridents. It's not just the extra torpedo per volley you're paying for, it's also got a better attrition rate. If a dagger squad gets wiped you're waiting 56 seconds for 3 torpedoes, while for tridents it's 50 seconds for 4 torpedoes, and they come 2 at a time which works much better when the AI decides to sit on engage and send out a continuous stream of bombers instead of a proper wave. In particular they're good on the astral which not only has the op to fit them but the recall device helps mitigate their slow speed. The trade offs between the two seem fair in my experience.
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Grievous69

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Re: Vanilla Balance Tweaks
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2022, 12:56:17 AM »

None of the changes seem bad or crazy, I just get the feeling most of it is unnecessary. I'll give my thoughts on each one.

Phase Lance: A strike weapon getting 100 more range just seems even worse for AI to me. As you said it'll get wasted on shields which is why I tend to use Phase Lances as anti-fighter/frigate weapons on ships that have longer range weapons. Such as Eagle/Falcon, Conquest and such. I get the idea behind the change you made but it won't help with the usage of it.

Burst Lasers: Do people find small ones weak? Anyways I wouldn't mind the buff but the Heavy version is where it needs help, your change sounds good.

HE weapons: I find it weird how you rebalanced two weapons which are currently completely fine, just to shoehorn a 800 HE gun with something that had a completely different role. Once again I understand where you wanted to go with this, there's just no sense to rework existing guns when they're good imo. Especially Heavy Mortar. HAG buff on the other hand is good, I never use that weapon so any change to it is welcomed.

Tridents: Never use them due to cost effectiveness, so seems good unless it turns out to be too good lol.

Wasps: These are considered underpowered? Huh, I mean the buff isn't anything extreme I just find it surprising.

Eagle: 75 might be too much. Also not sure if this counts the in-dev version which costs 20 DP and has slightly better shield efficiency.

Aurora: Don't know how I feel about this one. I have problems with the ship but it's not the shields heh, anyways I won't say no to that I guess.

Legion: Completely justified.
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BigBrainEnergy

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Re: Vanilla Balance Tweaks
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2022, 02:09:40 AM »

Wasp: Decreased replacement time to 2 (from 5).

These should be true swarmers and what they lack in firepower and overall usefulness, they make up in sheer quantity. Even at low carrier replacement levels, these things should be popping out and easily replaceable.

Wasps: These are considered underpowered? Huh, I mean the buff isn't anything extreme I just find it surprising.

Hard disagree. They lack firepower so reduce the replacement time? Okay, that's not necessarily a bad idea, but wouldn't you look at buffing the firepower first if that's your issue? Regardless, reducing replacement time by 60% is madness. A squad wipe now takes 30 seconds to replace (same as a broadsword squad) and you want to drop that to 12. I would spam wasps all day, every day.
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Grievous69

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Re: Vanilla Balance Tweaks
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2022, 02:53:45 AM »

The whole point of Wasps is low firepower, otherwise they could overwhelm anything. They're just squishy fast interceptors with the highest wing count, no need to buff them damage-wise.
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Igncom1

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Re: Vanilla Balance Tweaks
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2022, 02:59:47 AM »

They drop proxy mines, they are good for the interceptor drones they are supposed to be.

I don't really agree with a lot of the proposed changes here, seems very unnecessary, but I'll go for the one that is the most unnecessary.

"Assault Chaingun Completely reworked."

Why? It's great as it is. Have you never used one on a hammerhead before? If you want a different HE weapon that shoots at mid range, then use one?
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Retry

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Re: Vanilla Balance Tweaks
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2022, 05:04:29 PM »

Phase Lance: Interestingly, I thought the same thing.  I've tested it out somewhat in what was otherwise basically Vanilla a year or two ago, so hopefully I'll bring some useful insight.

The main benefactor to 700-range Phase Lances are Midlines, rather than high-tech ships (though anything with both medium energies and some ballistics can benefit).  Falcons and Eagles are the obvious winners because the Phase Lance can range match quite a bit better than most other Medium Energy options (especially since their energy turrets are far back, giving them even shorter effective range compared to their already longer-ranged Ballistic hardpoints), but other ships can benefit somewhat from them as well depending on loadout, including the Pirate Shrike, Medusa, and to some extent Aurora.  Useful to a somewhat lesser extent on the Sunder as well, which can combine them with a standard 700-range projectile energy like an Autopulse.

Ultimately, I feel the range buff helps the Phase Lance differentiate itself from the other 2 "armor busting" Medium Energies on the roster, Mining Blasters and particularly Heavy Blasters.  Feels like a good addition to me.

Burst Lasers: The smalls are ok, if a bit expensive for their value.  Heavy Bursts could use some assistance, but I wouldn't recommend supercharging their ammo supply; Rather it's better if they have a bit more "oomph" per shot.  IME, a tiny bit longer burst (like 0.1 seconds) + a bit more DPS tends to do the trick.  Possibly throw in fire-over-friendly capabilities similar to the Paladin.

But mostly I just want them to have an even number of charges.  Not for anything rational; my dumb monkey brain gets annoyed when I want to throw Expanded Magazines on my boat.

Mortar/Chaingun/HAG: No thank you.  I prefer 'em as is.  Maybe a flux efficiency buff at most for the HAG, if people feel like it's too weak.

If we need a 800-range ballistic HE weapon, it should be something new, not a current thing revamped to shoehorn in the position.

Perhaps a Space Shotgun.

Trident: Always went Daggers over them due to cost and speed, but I'm not sure adding an entire third wing is the solution, to be honest.

Wasp: Way too fast.

Hull Changes: No strong opinion one way or the other on any of these.
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Megas

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Re: Vanilla Balance Tweaks
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2022, 06:26:48 PM »

I often use burst PD as a phase lance substitute with more range than phase lance if the ship has an ePD officer.  Adding more charges will make them take longer to reach max ammo, and longer before ships fire burst PD at ships.

Phase lance does not have enough range.  Unless I use it on Harbinger (which I do not use unless I have Neural Link to bypass system recharge time), I only use phase lance if I have the OP to add Advanced Optics.  (Even then, it is not enough range, and I grab more heavy burst lasers.)
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Vanilla Balance Tweaks
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2022, 06:44:50 PM »

3 tridents per wing is way too much IMO. If I had to buff trident, it would be a small OP reduction, or maybe give it a burst PD or something.

Previously daggers had 18 OP/ 3 atropos and tridents had 25/4, so it was very close in damage/OP but tridents were a bit slower while also having the concentration of firepower advantage. I though tridents were already decent on astrals (3x longbow, 3x trident).

With three tridents, you're getting two full dagger wings of payload (36 OP) for 25 OP. Really not seeing why you would ever use daggers at that point.
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BigBrainEnergy

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Re: Vanilla Balance Tweaks
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2022, 08:45:35 PM »

3 tridents per wing is way too much IMO. If I had to buff trident, it would be a small OP reduction, or maybe give it a burst PD or something.

Previously daggers had 18 OP/ 3 atropos and tridents had 25/4, so it was very close in damage/OP but tridents were a bit slower while also having the concentration of firepower advantage. I though tridents were already decent on astrals (3x longbow, 3x trident).

With three tridents, you're getting two full dagger wings of payload (36 OP) for 25 OP. Really not seeing why you would ever use daggers at that point.
I'm not convinced tridents need to be buffed, but if they did then a small speed buff (130 to 140) or burst pds would be okay.
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Darloth

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Re: Vanilla Balance Tweaks
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2022, 07:58:22 AM »

May we have the mod to experiment with ourselves please?
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