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Author Topic: Should there be more Large missiles that don't shoot Large missiles?  (Read 4804 times)

Momaw

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Here's the thing. When you have a Small missile mount, you have all your bases covered. You've got anti-shield Sabots, you've got anti-armor Breachers, dogfight-ending Harpoons, anti-fighter Swarmers, dumbfire Annihilators, and if you're lucky and patient you can get a hit in with a torpedo.

When you upgrade to a Medium mount, you basically have the same options as a Small mount, but MORE: either more missiles carried or bigger volleys, or usually both. There are some changes to the lineup: You gain the frustrating Pilum missile which...no thanks.  You lose the rather nifty Swarmer launcher and Atropos torpedo in favor of the Proximity Charge Launcher which is a little clunky. But overall Medium missile mounts are really great and I would rather spend OP on Medium missiles than most other gun mounts.

Then you get to Large mounts, which should basically be the pinnacle of "I am now a terrifying god of missile delivery!" But.... It's not. At least I don't feel like it is.  The problem is your choice of weapons basically gets cut in half once you reach Large missiles. Your anti-everything Annihilator is replaced by the Squall, which fires slooooowly and in huge, long clumsy bursts that waste ammo. And according to the blog, this is going to change so that it's more anti-shield than anti-everything, so even LESS like the Annihilator.  Large-mount Sabots? No. Large-mount Breacher or Harpoon? No. You don't even get a less-bad mounting for the Pilum. The only Large mounts that even seek targets are the Harbinger (which is very slow and carries painfully limited ammo and basically outclassed by the Hammer Barrage) and the Locust which has the same problem as the Squall in that it fires in enormous wasteful bursts.

Is there anybody else that feels like there should be some more Large missile mount options that are more... flexible? Or carried more ammo? Or didn't fire in huge salvos? How many Harpoons or Sabots could you fit on a Large mount???  Or since Pilum was introduced at medium tier, would a Large Pilum recharge faster or have a bigger magazine?  Would a Large Prox Launcher have twice the ammo and fire rate?

Basically, it feels like there's really good options in Medium class missiles for punching both above and below your weight class while everything in Large mounts is only suitable for barge-on-barge combat with the exception of Locust which.... sure, it erases fighter swarms, but by the time you have a ship that actually HAS a large missile mount you care more about taking down carriers than fighters.  There is nothing stopping a cruiser with Large Ballistics from using its guns to one-tap an enemy bomber then completely brutalizing a frigate then turning to a slugging match with an enemy cruiser. Where, if you have Large Missiles, you only get to kind-of do one of those things and then back off and reload for a while...and then you're out of ammo.
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Grievous69

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Re: Should there be more Large missiles that don't shoot Large missiles?
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2022, 02:41:05 PM »

You might want to take a look at the latest blog posts, we're getting a bunch of new missiles including a large Pilum.

Also usually having tiers of the same weapon gets boring.
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Igncom1

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Re: Should there be more Large missiles that don't shoot Large missiles?
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2022, 02:51:53 PM »

Well your Cyclone Reaper Launcher is a double barrelled reaper torpedo launcher, pretty nice.

Hammer Barrage for dispensing four of Ludds hammers down into the godless heathens.

Hurricane MIRV Launcher which I quite like as a big multi-missile harpoon missile launcher.

Locust SRM Launcher for bulling fighters and frigates over an extended period of time.

And the Squall MLRS which does what the Sabots do as an anti-shield missile volley machine. Not very comparable to annihilator rocket launchers at all.


I'd not say no to new missiles but we do effectively have two torpedo weapons, a standard missile weapon, an anti-fighter weapons, and an anti-shield weapon.

So I guess we could double up on the standard missile weapon (or the tracking torpedos?), a second anti-fighter missile (cluster mine dispenser?) and anti-shield weapon (Sabots are VERY powerful as it is so I'd not know how to add another without it being something truly aweful. Something good vs shields but totally worthless against everything else?)

Not to mention weapons like the saturation Pilum or the Salamander anti-engine weapons. I do hear in an upcoming version that we are getting missiles with one shot laser cannons for warheads, which sounds cool.

I've seen mods do all sorts of things like dummy missiles that just circle enemy targets until they run out of fuel or are destroyed to distract enemy point defence, or large rocket racks for sending a wave of annihilator rockets at an enemy (along with overpowered nightmares like MLRS rockets that cross the whole battle map in endless torrents.)

I do feel like missiles present such a outside counter force that it might be nice to have anti-meta missiles for beating what might otherwise be dominate tactics like phase denial missiles, or anti-fortress shield missiles.

Or even AI killer missiles for when you really, really, REALLY want to enforce the AI ban.
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Kos135

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Re: Should there be more Large missiles that don't shoot Large missiles?
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2022, 03:23:38 PM »

I think large missiles are fine right now. And I agree with the squall nerf because as Alex says in the blog post announcing the nerf, a consistent squall bombardment can pound through armor more effectively than its kinetic damage profile would lead you to think. Squalls are basically a ship-mounted artillery piece, they should be strictly anti-shield. They do waste a lot of ammo if they're targeting a frigate or destroyer but they're devastating against cruisers and capitals, their intended targets.

A large version of the proximity launcher would be interesting. I don't think it conflicts with the locust in its PD role, because they perform that role in different ways. Locust missiles seek and destroy fighters, and if there are no fighters they target ships. They're effective against frigates in addition to fighters. Proximity launchers fire mines that are relatively slow, no tracking, but explode when anything gets near them and deal a lot of high explosive damage. Enemy AI is terrified of them and it can be used outside of its PD role in an offensive manner.

For example, the Dominator: I like to give it 2x annihilator pods and 1x proximity launcher in the middle slot. It serves 3 purposes - blowing up incoming missiles/fighters, scaring away enemy ships, and if a ship holds its ground it provides a ton of anti-armor firepower. It's very effective against cruisers and capitals, especially enemy Dominators and Onslaughts that have front missile batteries of their own.
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Amoebka

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Re: Should there be more Large missiles that don't shoot Large missiles?
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2022, 03:23:58 PM »

Large missile slots are trash, there's no triple Salamander. Literally unplayable.
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BigBrainEnergy

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Re: Should there be more Large missiles that don't shoot Large missiles?
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2022, 03:29:07 PM »

Hurricane is a lot like the large version of a harpoon and locust is a lot like the large version of a swarmer, but there are enough meaningful mechanical differences that they don't feel like a lazy copy paste into a larger slot. Actually, the same could be said even when it comes to the cyclone reaper and hammer barrage.

And then there's squalls. The nerf is well deserved if you ask me.

A general purpose large missile isn't super necessary when all of them have such raw power you can brute force your way through most situations. Double hurricanes can punch through shields, swarmers are great against hull, etc. Not to mention we are getting a large mount version of the pilum, the new dragonfire torpedo, and the hydra sounds great as a punch-down missile and as Alex said will have a lot of ammo so I imagine you can afford to use it as a general purpose weapon to supplement your other guns when fighting against stronger opponents.

Overall it seems like we've got plenty of choice in the large missile slot. If anything I'd like to see more large energy weapons, but at least the ones we have now are all fantastic in their niche.

Large missile slots are trash, there's no triple Salamander. Literally unplayable.
Had me in the first half, Jesus don't scare me like that lol.
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Amoebka

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Re: Should there be more Large missiles that don't shoot Large missiles?
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2022, 03:35:40 PM »

Jokes aside, I would love a large Salamander.

Larges aren't bad, but we all sure wish we had large harpoons and sabots. Gazers will only add to the medium slot envy next version.
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BigBrainEnergy

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Re: Should there be more Large missiles that don't shoot Large missiles?
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2022, 03:44:47 PM »

Jokes aside, I would love a large Salamander.

Larges aren't bad, but we all sure wish we had large harpoons and sabots. Gazers will only add to the medium slot envy next version.
I'm trying to think of how a large salamander would work, because it would pretty awkward if it was just the same but a volley of 4. Maybe stay at 2 per volley but cut the cooldown in half.

Large harpoons sound interesting on paper but I imagine they would step on the toes of hurricanes too much. Picking one over the other would boil down to which one is stronger rather than a difference in purpose. At most you could give one more ammo and the other more damage per burst but I don't think Alex is gonna bother with something that granular when we're already spoiled for choice.

Sabots definitely wouldn't have any competition in the large slot I just have no idea how you make them not overpowered. 4 sabots per volley is liable to break any ship (radiant) that can get close enough to use it.
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Thaago

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Re: Should there be more Large missiles that don't shoot Large missiles?
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2022, 04:55:20 PM »

I'll also note that most of the large missiles play well with missile spec and its elite skill. The mediums tend to have low ammo even after doubling (though annihilators are pretty good here!), but the larges have more base and tend to be limited by firing rate. +50% firing rate on the larges is _quite_ good!
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Schwartz

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Re: Should there be more Large missiles that don't shoot Large missiles?
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2022, 05:00:57 PM »

The interesting part is that large missiles are apart from their small and medium counterparts - so far. There's no 50-shot Harpoon MRM option, and no big Annihilator pod either. This is not a downside, though I wouldn't mind having them. What could be improved is the Squall and the agility of the MIRV. Needing ECCM & skills just to use a large slot missile feels bad. The Squall is arguably worse and folks still like the MIRV for bigger targets, fair enough.
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Kos135

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Re: Should there be more Large missiles that don't shoot Large missiles?
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2022, 05:09:47 PM »

but the larges have more base and tend to be limited by firing rate. +50% firing rate on the larges is _quite_ good!
But certain missiles should only be fired at certain times. For example, reaper torpedoes are best fired when a target is close to their maximum flux or when they're overloaded/unshielded.
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SafariJohn

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Re: Should there be more Large missiles that don't shoot Large missiles?
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2022, 05:23:48 PM »

2 turreted Hammer Barrages mows through just about everything already while ammo lasts. I don't see why you'd want anything else.
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Candesce

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Re: Should there be more Large missiles that don't shoot Large missiles?
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2022, 06:23:46 PM »

For example, reaper torpedoes are best fired when a target is close to their maximum flux or when they're overloaded/unshielded.
Unless you're using a Cyclone Reaper Launcher, in which case you should be using the torpedoes to force low-flux targets into high-flux, high-flux targets into overload, and overloaded targets dead, dead, dead. Just watch out not to waste them on targets with strong enough PD to keep them from landing.

Fired immediately every moment you can, you can keep firing the Cyclone for over a minute and a half, with no relevant skills or hull mods. With them, you get much longer. And you're not going to be firing them the moment they load even if you're spending them profligately.

Squall has similarly large amounts of ammo, too - over two minutes of fire before mods and skills. So does the Locust.
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Brainwright

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Re: Should there be more Large missiles that don't shoot Large missiles?
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2022, 08:07:15 PM »

Yeah, I'm not seeing this.  Hurricane handily fills the role of Harpoons, Atropos, and Breachers.  Squall is just a standoff weapon, like a graviton beam.  The nerf isn't even going to change how I use it, as I always backed it up with serious damage.  Locust is a PD weapon that can land serious hurt on damaged ships.

And they all have much more ammo than their smaller mount counterparts.  I usually question the wisdom of even using medium sabot mounts, as they're a knife fighting weapon, either for when you're attacking or getting attacked.  Two at a time can be kind of painful when a Fury just popped into your flank to say hello.  The Longbow is the best "upgrade," to use them on a larger scale.
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smithney

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Re: Should there be more Large missiles that don't shoot Large missiles?
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2022, 01:45:02 AM »

Basically, it feels like there's really good options in Medium class missiles for punching both above and below your weight class while everything in Large mounts is only suitable for barge-on-barge combat
Honestly when you look at the kind of hulls with large missile slots, the current large options handle punching up just fine considering we're basically talking about capitals, while punching down can be handled satisfyingly by medium slots. The only kind of punching up where large missiles falter imo is sieging stations, but that's a special case that deserves considering special measures, i.e. bombers.
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