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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: More fine-grained control over the crazy phase drive nerf  (Read 2768 times)

Amoebka

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Re: More fine-grained control over the crazy phase drive nerf
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2022, 03:48:02 AM »

40 deck fleet is useless - mono-fighter fleets don't work anymore.
Off-topic, but they do very much still work. You simply don't take the bait carrier skills and instead go for the real carrier skills - Support Doctrine and Derelict Ops. 3 decks and 2 medium missiles for 11 DP are pretty good apparently.
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TaLaR

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Re: More fine-grained control over the crazy phase drive nerf
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2022, 10:15:59 AM »

Off-topic, but they do very much still work. You simply don't take the bait carrier skills and instead go for the real carrier skills - Support Doctrine and Derelict Ops. 3 decks and 2 medium missiles for 11 DP are pretty good apparently.

I see how that could potentially work better. Not a strong argument for the DP-limited bait carrier skills though.
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Thaago

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Re: More fine-grained control over the crazy phase drive nerf
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2022, 10:41:25 AM »

The carrier skills are exactly the same as the phase skills - they encourage mixed fleets by. For very very large carrier fleets, the replacement rate skill is still worth it because in that limit every bit of replacement rate helps and the base bonus is so large. The +top speed skill and target leading is not worth it for 50+ bay fleets.

For mixed but fighter heavy compositions, say if the player has 16 bays in the fleet, the fighter skills are worthwhile. +25% replacement rate (37.5% on an officered ship) and +10% max speed (15% on officered) are good. For fleets that want some fighters to supplement other ships (say 3 herons/moras for 9 bays, 2 legions, Astral + Heron etc, something like that) the impact of the skills are transformational, especially with officers: +75% replacement (on top of 10% lower time from CR) means that even the heaviest bombers getting destroyed doesn't neuter the replacement rate, and you can have a neverending stream of interceptors with +40% speed - extreme example is Thunders going around at 630 speed which honestly might be too fast even with the autoaim at max...
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Vind

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Re: More fine-grained control over the crazy phase drive nerf
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2022, 04:54:15 PM »

DP cap must affect only deployed ships. Penalty for deployed ship because you have some other not deployed and unused in this current combat ship in the fleet is wrong in my opinion.
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Grievous69

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Re: More fine-grained control over the crazy phase drive nerf
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2022, 11:38:32 PM »

DP cap must affect only deployed ships. Penalty for deployed ship because you have some other not deployed and unused in this current combat ship in the fleet is wrong in my opinion.
But you can just deploy 40 DP worth of phase ships and then immediately send more with full bonuses as they die in combat. There's a reason why it counts everything in your fleet, otherwise the skills would make players have huge backup fleets.
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SCC

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Re: More fine-grained control over the crazy phase drive nerf
« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2022, 05:56:14 AM »

I think the reasons why it works as it does now is a) consistency (your deployed ships don't suddenly lose any bonuses, when you deploy new ones) and b) Crew Training and the like (would your ships gain or lose CR in combat?).

Darloth

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Re: More fine-grained control over the crazy phase drive nerf
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2022, 08:15:03 AM »

Could have it as a fleet menu toggle, a bit like you can suspend repairs for some ships but not others, have an option that's
"Suspend bonuses from DP Limited skills"

When that's toggled on, that ship never gets skill bonuses from skills, even in combat.  On the other hand, that means it can sit in the backline and not be sucking up the DP from other more useful ships... but since it's a fleet menu thing, if it does get forced into combat you can't decide to suddenly have the bonuses turned on, either.

Fits with a current style of toggle already in the game, reasonably easy to show which ships are and aren't qualifying for bonuses, and won't usually be a huge amount of micromanagement.  People who enjoy that sort of thing maybe can change which ships they're bonusing between fights but that's up to them, and I don't think it would be optimal enough to do that except when you actually lose a ship anyway.
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