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Author Topic: Vigilance is bad  (Read 5164 times)

Igncom1

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Re: Vigilance is bad
« Reply #75 on: August 05, 2022, 04:45:57 AM »

Yeah half my fleet can be described as shooting at one third of the rate really. I don't see it being as that big of a deal, the numbers don't really matter when the AI does what it wants anyway.

Besides powerful single shots are good for taking away armour, which can be useful for poking down enemy frigates and destroyers. I'm pretty solid that the HD or Phase Lances are decent enough on them in AI hands, they just aren't comparable at all to Tempests which can solo destroyers on their own.
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Grievous69

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Re: Vigilance is bad
« Reply #76 on: August 05, 2022, 04:51:05 AM »

Heavy blasters are.... not the worst on the Vigilances honestly, as it's not like being shot by anything else is any better with a less fluxy weapon.
Well if Mining Blaster didn't exist, they'd take the first place, so you're technically right. Still, I have major doubts such a build can work in any capacity in any stage of the game. If 1000 range low flux builds don't seem to do well survival wise, I don't see how your 600 range extremely overfluxed build works in practice.

Just saw the latest post and you said HBs and Phase Lances are good AI weapons... Alright another lost thread.
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smithney

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Re: Vigilance is bad
« Reply #77 on: August 05, 2022, 05:09:14 AM »

Just saw the latest post and you said HBs and Phase Lances are good AI weapons... Alright another lost thread.
I remember having success spamming AI Tempests with Phase Lances and Graviton Beams back in HEF age. A squad of these could bully a squishy target to death and pressure bulkier ones without being threatened by pretty much anything. I wonder how would this strategy hold up these days. Could a similar setup work with TT Brawlers or Hyperions? Can you imagine Vigilance being rebuilt into a small Sunder with a side-dish of DEMs?
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Igncom1

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Re: Vigilance is bad
« Reply #78 on: August 05, 2022, 05:12:17 AM »

ANOTHER SUNDER!?!?

Oh well I mean..... if everyone else would want that I guess I could be persuaded.  ;D
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BigBrainEnergy

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Re: Vigilance is bad
« Reply #79 on: August 05, 2022, 11:48:06 AM »

I remember having success spamming AI Tempests with Phase Lances and Graviton Beams back in HEF age. A squad of these could bully a squishy target to death and pressure bulkier ones without being threatened by pretty much anything. I wonder how would this strategy hold up these days. Could a similar setup work with TT Brawlers or Hyperions? Can you imagine Vigilance being rebuilt into a small Sunder with a side-dish of DEMs?
Phase lance/Graviton might work with High-Scatter. A tempest can easily get into 400 range, but I don't know if the AI will just drop their shield between phase lance shots. If it does you could bring more ships with ion weapons, or maybe the threat of termination sequence alone will be enough.
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Embolism

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Re: Vigilance is bad
« Reply #80 on: August 05, 2022, 08:39:02 PM »

I think the Vigilance needs a full rebuild like the Hyperion got. I don't think it can be fixed with its current mount setup, and to be honest it's a pretty awkward ship visually.

It should either dig down on the missile specialist and get some small missile slots, or become more generalist with other slots.
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Haresus

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Re: Vigilance is bad
« Reply #81 on: August 06, 2022, 12:09:59 AM »

Interesting thread, I gotta agree that the Vigilance feels pretty disappointing. If you want support missiles in the later game, the Gryphon is an amazing option. Early game, the Vigilance is just too slow and vulnerable.

Some thoughts from me:
Vigilance can't be too fast, or else it becomes a kite machine. Long range graviton or ion beam in combination with high speed is a potentially nasty (and safe/boring) combination.
If the Vigilance is a fleet support ship then running out of missiles early in the battle is a major downside, so infinite ammo missiles are preferred.
On the same note, unguided missiles are generally not great since the Vigilance is not much of a frontline ship.
The above two points means that the Vigilance will favour low-impact support missiles, like the Pilum or Salamander, maybe someone can make the Breach missiles work with the Vigilance.
The Vigilance should be weak to fighters, this seems like a core part of its identity to me. Giving it ship systems that counter fighters would shore up one of its weak points, yes, but also take away something that makes the Vigilance into the Vigilance.

The way I see it, there are three viable changes:
Increase the speed back to 130, this will increase the ship's survivability at the risk of making it too good at kiting.
Add expanded missile racks built-in, this encourages using ammo-dependent missiles but doesn't actually improve the Pilum/Salamander Vigilance. Maybe it opens up some room for a Harpoon/Sabot Vigilance though.
Reduce DP to 4. If a ship isn't very good, then maybe the solution is just to make it cheaper to field it.

I thought a little bit about turning the hybrid turret into a ballistic turret and sidestepping the Graviton/Ion beam shenanigans that way, then you could safely increase the speed of the Vigilance to something respectable. Maybe that's more of a Vigilance (P) idea though.
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Serenitis

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Re: Vigilance is bad
« Reply #82 on: August 06, 2022, 01:45:19 AM »

I think the Vigilance needs a full rebuild like the Hyperion got.
Quote
dig down on the missile specialist and get some small missile slots
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Add expanded missile racks built-in, this encourages using ammo-dependent missiles but doesn't actually improve the Pilum/Salamander
Salamander doesn't use ammo, but Pilum does.
Expanded Racks does help Pilum as it gives them a longer time until the missiles become rate-limited and can only fire as fast as they are reloaded.
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prav

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Re: Vigilance is bad
« Reply #83 on: August 06, 2022, 09:10:42 AM »

As a frigate that can launch 16 harpoons in a few seconds I think the Vigilance has pretty solid offense already. A larger problem is how easy it is to kill.

Part of it is an AI issue - it's a hardcore support ship, but the AI tends to say "hey, fast frigate - send it out to kite something" - and then it gets killed by fighters or frigates that aren't specialized in support. Maybe some hull hint to discourage this, SUPPORT_LARGER or similar? And when it does stick with its bigger buddies it sometimes gets caught in the crossfire a bit too easily - I think a little extra flux cap could be good here, surviving an extra second or tanking one more harpoon can be plenty.
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Haresus

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Re: Vigilance is bad
« Reply #84 on: August 06, 2022, 10:05:33 AM »

Add expanded missile racks built-in, this encourages using ammo-dependent missiles but doesn't actually improve the Pilum/Salamander
Salamander doesn't use ammo, but Pilum does.
Expanded Racks does help Pilum as it gives them a longer time until the missiles become rate-limited and can only fire as fast as they are reloaded.

True, didn't think of that. Unfortunately, the AI doesn't seem to be very good at using the Fast Missile Racks with the Pilum anyway. It stays at 2 charges, sometimes it even remains at 3 charges for a prolonged time. This behaviour makes sense if you're reserving your firepower for the right moment to unleash a volley of devastating Harpoon missiles, less so if you're trying to provide sustained Pilum pressure. It'll run out of peak active performance time before it gets even halfway through its Expanded Missile Racks. There's some benefit there with the right skills and if the engagement goes on for long enough, but it seems fairly marginal.
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